Malkolm's Hard-to-find INFO thread -Engine building- - K20A.org .:. The K Series Source . Honda / Acura K20a k24a Engine Forum
Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 01-07-2017, 09:42 PM   #1
malkolm666
Lifetime Member
 
malkolm666's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 436
Default Malkolm's Hard-to-find INFO thread -Engine building-

There is so many stickys on this forum, and sometimes its really hard to find that useful info that you seek. So I thought hhat I made my own thread for stuff/info I havd been looking and searching for. I hope that you find it useful to!
Im in Europe, so I will write all measurements in Metric.

Head-cams:
To check what VTC is safe to run in a engine.
I used chunkys old clearence tread:
http://www.k20a.org/forum/showthread.php?t=31571

(And this http://www.k20a.org/forum/showthread.php?t=100412 )

I never the info about what is safe p2v clearence in a k-motor? So I searched for hours, its like written everywhere that "you should always clay to check v2p clearence" but it was really hard to find what the proper clearence is!!
So this is what I found so far. Luke(I assume from 4p) had told someone that 1.5mm is safe. Onefstek(Stefan at ASPheaders) wrote 1.5mm to 2.0mm is safe. Bodyman said 1.8mm. Blueprint wrote that their stage2+ cam would give you 1.0mm on stock piston. Zof484 wrote that he had 1,25mm on 50 VTC. And Markus/Lotuselise wrote that with the safetyfactor of 2, p2v is safe at 2mm or when racing and hard downshifting 2,5mm is safe.
__________________
"Once a K, ALWAYS a K!"
Vouches: tedk20, 2000EK4, Asse, Junior 7, jdm94civic, bysk24, k20sean, Al.BrEeZy, naudlee, jesnuts83, SchueString Racing, cstyleaccord, abel, Trevdog, baddrummerboyy, Jas9848, Alex_CTR, Jaydee, ProcessRacing, K20R EG6,

Last edited by malkolm666; 03-18-2017 at 12:43 PM..
malkolm666 is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
Old 01-08-2017, 02:06 AM   #2
LotusElise
Lifetime Member
 
LotusElise's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: SoBW
Posts: 3,541
Default Re: Malkolm's Hard-to-find INFO thread -Engine building-

Quote:
Originally Posted by malkolm666 View Post
I never the info about what is safe p2v clearence in a k-motor?

...Luke(I assume from 4p) had told someone that 1.5mm is safe. Onefstek(Stefan at ASPheaders) wrote 1.5mm to 2.0mm is safe. Bodyman said 1.8mm. Blueprint wrote that their stage2+ cam would give you 1.0mm on stock piston. Zof484 wrote that he had 1,25mm on 50 VTC. And Markus/Lotuselise wrote that with the safetyfactor of 2, p2v is safe at 2mm or when racing and hard downshifting 2,5mm is safe.
This a topic running me also for days to build up a model to calculate the dynamic P2V clearance. The point is it depends on the VTC-over-engine-speed-curve, which has a lot of dependencies. Like:
  • camshaft specification
  • header
  • intake (manifold)
  • operational engine speed range
  • materials of valves, connecting rod, piston, ...
  • block deck height
  • engine concept (TC, NA, SC)
  • and so on
Just as an example, Larry from ENDYN did the smallest squish height I know of 0.9 mm in one of his B20 engines to get ZERO mm squish height at 9000 rpm to have a high combustion velocity for higher power at those revvs. He stamped his piston and head, as the piston hammered into the head at around 9000 rpm. Now the engine was new and the ash layer thickness was almost not there.

The point here is, squish height is an dynamic height which correlates with engine speed and heat production of the engine. The thing with the intake P2V clearance is a bit more complicated through it depends not only on engine speed and heat production of the engine, but also on it's setup, not to say VTC over engine speed curve .
  • The higher the engine speed, the higher the extention of valves, rod, piston and crank (and bearing clearances!)
  • The higher combustion heat transfer to engine parts (e.g. through retarded ignition timing) the more extension of lenght
  • The better engine scavenging the higher VTC at higher revvs
  • The older the engine, the bigger are extension lenghtes through bearing, fouling of cooling surfaces of the block and other parts, P2V reduction through ash build up
  • ...
This little complexity lead to many different experiences, as racers rebuild there engine quite often compared to DD's, different engine speeds and VTC curves are based for experiences and so on...

I just can plead for an individual calculation of the P2V clearance or a more safe approach I did here (safety factor of 2-thing ), as I assume many statements here are used for general use .

Just an example of my own,
  • 4500 rpm, VTC = 50°
  • 8500 rpm, VTC = 20°
The difference in cold V2P clearance is about 3 mm for both engine speeds, dynamically (hot and revved) it is a bit less ! If it were an SC engine, at 8.5 krpm the VTC would be higher, the issue bigger!

Markus
LotusElise is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-08-2017, 08:22 AM   #3
malkolm666
Lifetime Member
 
malkolm666's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 436
Default Re: Malkolm's Hard-to-find INFO thread -Engine building-

About claying the pistons and check p2v clearances. I found out that an easy way to check for clearance at different VTC angels is to lovk the VTC gear by putting pins in it. Just like the pins hou can buy from Tractuff! But I made my own pins. I cut of the base from regular drills. Someone else had done the math already, Hondata says that by cut 6.04mm of from a 25degree VTC gear it will move 20degrees more. Thats 1.5mm per 5degrees.
So if you take a 50degree, lets say RBC gear and want it to become a 40degree gear, you need to insert a pin that is 2x1,5mm=3mm thick. I dont know if this is an exact measurement, nd for me it doesnt matter so much if its correct or not. As long as my VTC will stop moving before the p2v is to tight!
I mean if I check mecanically and lets sy I find out that a 3.5mm pin is perfect gor my p2v clearance, then I will go with that pin in my VTC gear. It doesnt matter if its VTC 38.5 or 34. As long is it safe and correct! And I will find out later from the Kpro datalog the exact digit the VTC can move.

So some rough estimates using a 50degree gear:
40 degree, use a 3mm pin
35 degree, use a 4.5mm pin
30 degree, use a 6mm pin

it fits in the (largest) cavity to the right of the hydraulic moved pin and spring.

Thanks Mounty!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mounty View Post
I bought the tractuff 40* limiter. I had it welded into place, will take picture tomorrow. For what it's worth, you could just aswell get a roller bearing hardened metal pin, diameter is 3 mm, length does not matter, just aslong as it isn't touching the upper and/or lower coverplates, and have that welded into place, would be alot cheaper than buying the tractuff one... hell you could buy 10 pins and two little bottles of loc-tite blue for what they are asking for the part.. it fits in the (largest) cavity to the right of the hydraulic moved stud/pin/thingy...
Mounty






Can you calculate or estimate for my engine Markus?

K24 with Manley rods and CP-pistons CR 12.5. Portflow head with 1mm bigger intake valves. I think that the head is a little milled but not so much.
DC stage 4cams and supertech springs and Ti retainers.

I clayed it and locked the VTC and turned it a couple of runs.

•VTC 35 the p2v was 2.5mm
•VTC 40 the p2v was 1.6-1.7mm (its hard to measure clay!)

I want to be able to rev it 8300-8500rpm if I have power there. It will be in a street car first, but maybe later in a track/circuit racing car.
__________________
"Once a K, ALWAYS a K!"
Vouches: tedk20, 2000EK4, Asse, Junior 7, jdm94civic, bysk24, k20sean, Al.BrEeZy, naudlee, jesnuts83, SchueString Racing, cstyleaccord, abel, Trevdog, baddrummerboyy, Jas9848, Alex_CTR, Jaydee, ProcessRacing, K20R EG6,

Last edited by malkolm666; 01-08-2017 at 09:46 AM..
malkolm666 is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 01-09-2017, 12:13 AM   #4
LotusElise
Lifetime Member
 
LotusElise's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: SoBW
Posts: 3,541
Default Re: Malkolm's Hard-to-find INFO thread -Engine building-

Quote:
Originally Posted by malkolm666 View Post
Can you calculate or estimate for my engine Markus?
In general yes, but...

Quote:
Originally Posted by malkolm666 View Post
K24 with Manley rods and CP-pistons CR 12.5. Portflow head with 1mm bigger intake valves...DC stage 4cams and supertech springs and Ti retainers.

•VTC 35 the p2v was 2.5mm
•VTC 40 the p2v was 1.6-1.7mm (its hard to measure clay!)

I want to be able to rev it 8300-8500rpm if I have power there.
...much more info is needed, as I need every parts weight, lenghtes and to see the combustion chamber for being able to do some assumptions. Also to be clarified if it is NA, TC or SC. Gasket height, piston deck height...or are the measurements above directly from this setup?

Markus
LotusElise is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-09-2017, 12:21 AM   #5
malkolm666
Lifetime Member
 
malkolm666's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 436
Default Re: Malkolm's Hard-to-find INFO thread -Engine building-

Yes, the measurement are from that motor. Its a NA motor, most likely on E85.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg image.jpg (1.12 MB, 25 views)
__________________
"Once a K, ALWAYS a K!"
Vouches: tedk20, 2000EK4, Asse, Junior 7, jdm94civic, bysk24, k20sean, Al.BrEeZy, naudlee, jesnuts83, SchueString Racing, cstyleaccord, abel, Trevdog, baddrummerboyy, Jas9848, Alex_CTR, Jaydee, ProcessRacing, K20R EG6,
malkolm666 is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-09-2017, 12:27 AM   #6
LotusElise
Lifetime Member
 
LotusElise's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: SoBW
Posts: 3,541
Default Re: Malkolm's Hard-to-find INFO thread -Engine building-

Quote:
Originally Posted by malkolm666 View Post
Yes, the measurement are from that motor. Its a NA motor, most likely on E85.
Thanks . Weights of parts? At least I need those from piston, piston rings, piston shaft and conrod and their materials. Gasket height and the other stuff I can calculate from the data above.

Markus
LotusElise is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 01-09-2017, 12:51 AM   #7
malkolm666
Lifetime Member
 
malkolm666's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 436
Default Re: Malkolm's Hard-to-find INFO thread -Engine building-

Manley H-beam rods 4340 material. Total weight 551grams. Big end 382gr, pin end 169gr.

Pistons I dont have the numbers here. My old wisecos was 322gr. You can calculate on that. Do I remeber correct if I say that pin was 103gr?!
__________________
"Once a K, ALWAYS a K!"
Vouches: tedk20, 2000EK4, Asse, Junior 7, jdm94civic, bysk24, k20sean, Al.BrEeZy, naudlee, jesnuts83, SchueString Racing, cstyleaccord, abel, Trevdog, baddrummerboyy, Jas9848, Alex_CTR, Jaydee, ProcessRacing, K20R EG6,

Last edited by malkolm666; 01-09-2017 at 12:53 AM..
malkolm666 is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-04-2017, 04:31 AM   #8
malkolm666
Lifetime Member
 
malkolm666's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 436
Default Re: Malkolm's Hard-to-find INFO thread -Engine building-

Measured the V2V clearance today.
•only 2valves installed, with only the inner springs installed to get as low springpressure as possible.
•easiest is to put valves in cylinder nr 4. (Dont need to rotate the cams so much to measure)
•vtec engaged
•VTC looked at 40degrees
•valvelash at 0.20mm on intake and 0.26mm on exhaust side.

Could have used 4hands doing this. It was kinda headache when doing it alone for the first time.

This head has +1mm Intake valves. Drag Cartel stage4 cams.

Got the clearance measured to 1,60mm. (At VTC 40)
(At full VTC(50degrees) I measuread it to 1,00mm).

Chunky had 1,40mm... (at VTC 50degrees and -5 on exhaust gear)
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_1205.jpg (772.1 KB, 16 views)
__________________
"Once a K, ALWAYS a K!"
Vouches: tedk20, 2000EK4, Asse, Junior 7, jdm94civic, bysk24, k20sean, Al.BrEeZy, naudlee, jesnuts83, SchueString Racing, cstyleaccord, abel, Trevdog, baddrummerboyy, Jas9848, Alex_CTR, Jaydee, ProcessRacing, K20R EG6,

Last edited by malkolm666; 02-04-2017 at 05:07 AM..
malkolm666 is online now   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 02-05-2017, 01:48 AM   #9
LotusElise
Lifetime Member
 
LotusElise's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: SoBW
Posts: 3,541
Default Re: Malkolm's Hard-to-find INFO thread -Engine building-

Quote:
Originally Posted by malkolm666 View Post
...rods...Total weight 551grams. Big end 382gr, pin end 169gr...Pistons...322gr...pin was 103gr?!
I will come back with my result later, something straight happend to my Operation Software...just looking in that empty hardnecked Windows®. C and VBA and all the Microsoft stuff is down

.

Do you have a idea of the full load VTC curve of your setup? It would help to calculate the dynamic and engine speed related valve to piston distance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by malkolm666 View Post
This head has +1mm Intake valves. Drag Cartel stage4 cams....Got the clearance measured to 1,60mm. (At VTC 40)...At full VTC(50degrees) I measuread it to 1,00mm...Chunky had 1,40mm... (at VTC 50degrees and -5 on exhaust gear)
Great work malkolm666 and thanks for posting the clearance results.

Need to check my disk copy for the DC 004 cam data. Would like to look for the centerline of this cam, just cracy high advance for such a big duration. Either the centerline is advanced compared to stock cams or the opening ramp is pretty flat, just to cover an 40 °ca@1.6 mm lift. My TODA A3 cams also resulted in a similar result: 40°@1.8 mm lift.

Do you have contact to Chunky? He stated to finish his build, just curious what it put down, as it he did use a similar approach: 86x86 engine, CR 12.5:1, stage 2 cams and about 9000-9500 rpm for redline. Would be nice to read from him or about the built.

Markus
LotusElise is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 03-23-2017, 03:32 AM   #10
Nyborg Garage
K20a.org Basic User
 
Nyborg Garage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Norway
Posts: 224
Default Re: Malkolm's Hard-to-find INFO thread -Engine building-

Malkolm i would reccommend buying a cam degreeing kit.
Really light Springs do make things easier. Also I use all four valves, so I can double check all measurements. And measuring v2p clearance is much easier with dial gauges on both valves. I only use clay to check valve to valve relief clearance, and dubble check squish clearance on both sides.
I always measure v2v and p2v clearance with zero valve lash btw.

Also when thinking of v2v and v2p, remember that cams can move around alot, relative to each other, and relative to crank/piston. The chain/tensioner is not firm enough to make the measurements a constant. It is probably affected by heat also?

Sent fra min E5603 via Tapatalk

Last edited by Nyborg Garage; 03-23-2017 at 03:34 AM..
Nyborg Garage is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-16-2017, 10:57 PM   #11
Master_Scythe
K20a.org Basic User
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 146
Default Re: Malkolm's Hard-to-find INFO thread -Engine building-

This is BRILLIANT info on the pin diameter.

So, I've decided I'm going to use Welding Titanium filler rod, for my pin (as it's pure, and easily available).

Since I'm using a K24 (early) with K24 TSX (late model) cams, I was going to use a 2.5mm VTC pin.

By my calculations, that'll be 43.3*, yes?
Should be safe?

If my research is good, It needs to be:
-2.5mm diameter
-1 inch long
- Ground on each to a rounded point, so it has no resistance to 'flick straight' if it tried to fall over in the hole.

Yes?
Master_Scythe is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Old 05-17-2017, 12:34 AM   #12
LotusElise
Lifetime Member
 
LotusElise's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: SoBW
Posts: 3,541
Default Re: Malkolm's Hard-to-find INFO thread -Engine building-

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nyborg Garage View Post
...The chain/tensioner is not firm enough to make the measurements a constant. It is probably affected by heat also?
Yes, it is affected by heat also! Beside that also by engine speed! Just imagine an e.g. 400 g piston can stretch a rod for some 10th of an mm through the virtual weight of over a ton at 8800 rpm of an 99 mm stroker, just by that huge acceleration the crank put down over rod on the piston at that engine speed. Therefore a safety factor of 2 and more is good to have for P2V clearance.

Markus
LotusElise is offline   Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Reply

Bookmarks

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the K20A.org .:. The K Series Source . Honda / Acura K20a k24a Engine Forum forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.



Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -8. The time now is 04:28 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2017 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
 

Garage Plus vBulletin Plugins by Drive Thru Online, Inc.