: Honda based V8


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Slociviccoupe
03-01-2009, 03:16 PM
anyone with the knoledge please chime in. This is not for a k series, but is honda based.
I am designing a honda based v8 using f20c cylinder heads and basic engine geometry.
To be able to fit 2 rods on one journal while still keeping the same 94mm bore spacing of the f20c, Im having to reduce the big end width of the connecting rods. Since the k series have had failures due to rod bearing width I will not be reducing the width too much. I plan on using the b series big end dimensions in my design. Since the b series rarely have rod bearing failures due to bearing dimensions.
Also I am having to narrow my Main bearings so that I can have enough material for the counterweights.
My question Is what effects does narrowing the main bearings and increasing the diameter have on the engine. I would think that when you reduce width you would add diameter to make up for the loss of surface area. Also would running a larger diameter bearing on the mains help in minimizing bearing speeds. a larger diameter main journal on the crank would have less speed because of the larger diameter.
I can only look at the differences between the f20c that i have and the j35 v6 that i also have. And ask questions like why did honda do that? For space requirements and compactness. Or did they reduce main bearing width and increase diameter for the added load and increased horsepower.
Some one with advanced engine theory and design please chime in. Need some answers to aid in my v8 design. So that I can finish drawing the crankshaft and move on to designing the block.
:dance:

MrSlappy
03-09-2009, 11:21 PM
As you increase the diameter of the main bearings you also will increase the working force and actual rotational speed of the crank journal. This means more friction, more heat, higher oil temps and such. If you do not have to increase the diamter then I would not. A V-8 config will have more total load on the main journals but it will be loaded on different sides. Block stiffness and oil supply will be more important at higher RPMS than larger journal diameter.

The type of bearing failure occurred in most Honda K and B series motors should help determine if it is a bearing design failure or possibly oil starvation/temp causing the failure. If the bearings are failing from excessive heat, then you should consider slightly looser tolerances for bearing clearance as well as higher oil FLOW. I do not see why the FACTORY SIZE and STYLE bearings will not work or atleast be a good starting point for your design. I would highly consider having the block half of the main bearing saddle groove cut to ensure more oil supply to the main bearings as welll as help cool the bearing. If you have a 360 or 270 deg groove main bearing with multiple oil supply holes as well as radius chamfered holes in the crank, that should durastically help with oil supply and temp reduction. If the rod bearings are a known weak point, then also consider tightening up the main bearing clearance to help allocate and direct more oil flow to the rod bearings and run them slightly looser.

I would also recommend steel-babit bearings over aluminum for this engine type. Higher loads, RPMs, friction, more heat and so on. This can cause a faster bearing failure than from a turbocharged engine.

Something else to consider if using 2 F20C heads, you will either need to re-cast one head in reverse with the ports on the opposite sides, or create a timing chain setup on the back of the block for the other engine bank....

jrobson
03-10-2009, 12:20 AM
Hi

I've already done what you did, but with K24a heads, just need some cash before I can start machining... Don't be suprised if you redraw the engine around 5 - 10 times everytime changing something that requires a complete rebuild.

Anyways, to get back to your question, a lot depends on the engine itself, my big question is: what stroke are you planning? This will pretty much force all your crank parameters.

Bugatti went with 12mm wide rods in the Veyron, as long as you have enough oil, you can do the same!

Slociviccoupe
03-10-2009, 12:42 PM
I also already have drawn up a v8 using k20a2 heads. I stopped design when I ran into the problem of controlling vtc on 2 cylinder banks. Then the tensioner problems with the k series turned me away also. to the point I sold my hatch the k motor was going in, bought an s2k, and selling all my k series parts to get f20c parts.
What turned me on about the f20c is the central timing gear, tensioner in the head, Cylinder head flows enough for 500 hp.
My engine will be 87mm stroke X 90mm bore, yielding 4275cc's. Chose the f20c stroke because of the long rods and 1.82:1 R/S ratio.
I have the rear timing chain figured out. will be using an idler gear to reverse the direction of the crank for the cylinder head with the chain in the rear. So that standard rotation camshafts can be used.
To fit 2 rods on one journal I am being forced to reduce the width of the main bearings. I will be using nsx width journals, main caps, and bearings. Also having to reduce the width of the B/E of the rod to B series type r specs. This gives me enough room for the counterweights. Crankshaft will be 4340 with hollow rod journals.
If anyone has or knows of any f series heads im looking to trade k20a2 ported head, k24a1 crv shortblock with 256 miles. k series gearset, ect for 2 f20/22c cylinder heads.

Slociviccoupe
03-10-2009, 01:04 PM
block is split case design and will be made from 6061 t6 billet aluminum. Cylinder banks will also be billet 6061 t6 aluminum with dart t sleeves. Since it is split case like the k and f series the bottom end is plenty strong. Each mainbolt will be dowelled, The cylinder banks will be dowelled to the crankcase, and the head will be dowelled to the cylinders. Yes I know the block will be under different forces than a 4 cylinder. The forces will be a side to side motion instead of up and down. The nsx main caps in the block have a full groove behind the bearing for cooling. Also the bearing has a full groove in the block half with 3 oil holes in the bearing itself. The bearings also have almost a countersink where the holes are in the bearing. I will be running a dry sump oiling system so pressure is not a concern. I figure the c32a nsx motor is a high output 90 degree v6, that is capable of high rpm. The ability to use oem honda/acura parts will make this engine cheaper to build and maintain. Also the chance of producing a kit built engine for others. As a Side note found out that most major nascar, circle track, and sprint car engine builders use honda rod bearings in their engines. Using the f20/22c cylinder heads with a common block and crank, the engine can be runn off an s2k aem ems. Using the additional injector and coil outputs to run the other cylinder bank. Then change the firing order in the program of the aem software. This way the engine can be dropped directly into an s2k and the cluster, a/c, and power steering will still work.

jrobson
03-10-2009, 01:17 PM
Cool, I'm not bothered with VTC or cams etc ... so no problem... Using a belt system as well otherwise the cost just go though the roof if you try and keep the stock system. K20A's/K24A's are not as rare as F20C's here, there is no chance of me getting F20C heads.

That stroke is very long and the engine big for a flat plane, unless you are going with a dual plane crank? Use as big and rigid mains as you can fit. You will need a lot of rigidity with long stroke flat planes. I think such a big motor will be a very tight fit in a S2000...

I'm going the other route, short stroke(currently settled on 60mm) 88mm bore. Easier, and a lot cheaper and smaller :)

jrobson
03-10-2009, 01:26 PM
A V6 is a lot smoother than a flat plane V8, might be worthwhile to go one size bigger on the mains for extra rigidity.

Slociviccoupe
03-10-2009, 01:34 PM
check out www.h1v8.com
this is the inspiration behind my design. just going 90 degree v8 using the best of honda parts. The stock stroke of the f20c is 84mm. while the stroke of the f22c is 90.7mm. Im going with the shorter stroke for rod stroke ratio, rod length, and the ability to use stock rods that is if I can fit them and don't have to narrow the rod width. The bottom end will have 4 bolt mains in split case configuration. Also will have bolts like that of the f and k series that hold the lower block/girdle to the upper case. Then there will be the Sump, which will go flat across the lower engine case. The bottom end Is a very strong design. If the ls1 can handle the power they are getting out of the stock block with actual main caps and no girdle, Im sure a split case block with 4 bolt mains will be stout enough.

jrobson
03-10-2009, 01:42 PM
I am familiar with that project, I still think 87mm is too much, honda themselves went with around 80mm on the NSX engines. But of course it is personal preference and I'm just voicing my opinion.

Slociviccoupe
03-10-2009, 01:47 PM
sorry, typed wrong number Im using the stock stroke of the f20c which is 84mm.

MrSlappy
03-10-2009, 09:50 PM
Something else to consider with the bore size is headgasket sealing... I think you would be better off with a 89mm bore because those head gaskets are more common and that is an extra 25% between cylinders.

I would not set the engine stroke based on what you want, but more based on your goals. Your HP goals should be based on your piston area ( bore size and quantity) and not stroke. I do agree with the smaller 84mm stroke though for many reasons. I am assuming that you are designing this engine for CONTINUOUS 9000rpm opperation. If you are trying for a lower RPM power band then I would consider increasing the stroke and Vise Versa. This is all taking Reliability and Longevity into account over maximum power.

jrobson
03-10-2009, 11:49 PM
Would you mind posting progress from time to time? It would be interesteing to see the comparison, even while designing - estimated weight and sizes for instance. It is going to be quite a feat to get 9000rpm off a V8 with 84mm stroke.

signalpuke
03-11-2009, 07:53 AM
What is the reason for building a new motor as opposed to using one already in production?
The Toyota V8's are quite apt at meeting your power and RPM needs, are they too large?

jrobson
03-11-2009, 07:56 AM
For me yes, but it's also a fun project where you learn a lot. These custom small units weigh in at 100kg or less and with a short stroke large bore you still make good power.

MrSlappy
03-11-2009, 09:58 PM
I'd love to have a bad ass v-8 with some of this K20/ F20 techology. Realisticly, 500hp is not far off...

jrobson
03-12-2009, 03:15 AM
What is the max power you can get out of a K or F engine? Using those heads on a V8 should provide for roughly double that. So on a head that flows 250cfm 500hp should be possible... K/F's in stock form flows more than that.

MrSlappy
03-12-2009, 06:35 AM
What is the max power you can get out of a K or F engine? Using those heads on a V8 should provide for roughly double that. So on a head that flows 250cfm 500hp should be possible... K/F's in stock form flows more than that.

From a K20 engine ( not K24 based) I have seen in the high 200's at the wheels with the right parts. These heads have so much air flow that they benefit high piston speeds for higher cylinder filling. That is ofcourse more directed at drag racing though. Define maximum horsepower, you mean the maximum potential of the motor? or the highest HP people are getting out of them? Or do yo mean the highest reliable HP? they are all different. HP is basically based on air flow, BMEP, and piston area. The more you have, the better.

The biggest "drawback" to any of these motors is the bore limitation. you can go 90mm bore, but most only do 89mm for head gasket sealing.

jrobson
03-12-2009, 11:37 PM
I meant obvious hp, haha, you know, the reliable usable kind. :silly: I agree, 94mm with some big valves would have been nice...

V8's tend to make a bit more hp per cfm than 4's so the potential is there to make good power, below the curve too!

MrSlappy
03-13-2009, 06:08 AM
I meant obvious hp, haha, you know, the reliable usable kind. :silly: I agree, 94mm with some big valves would have been nice...

V8's tend to make a bit more hp per cfm than 4's so the potential is there to make good power, below the curve too!

The nice part about multiple cylinders ( more than 4) is that you share a lot of the rotating/reciprocating parts which means less friction. Also Less Parasitic drag from its own rotating assembly per cylinder, which means that it takes less power per cylinder to keep it running.

If you did 2 stock F20c motors and they make 240hp stock and you did a V-8, you would think that it would make 480 hp, but in reality, It COULD actually make a few HP more. Only 1 water pump, oil pump, and so on. those take power and your not going to have 2 of each....

Something to consider as well with this, If you want it to be made from mostly factory honda parts, then consider using factory pistons and rods that are available. because if you have a problem, it will be an easy fix.


Somewhat off topic, but I have a Nissan SR20 block sleeved out as far as they go which is 94mm. 8mm over stock 86, and most people only go 90mm cause its all thats out there, but i'd rather have a 94mm bore and 86mm stroke, than a 87 bore x 92mm stroke. If i can get the rest of the head setup to flow well and get some nice cams made, it should make great power.

Bottom line... Bore > stroke

Slociviccoupe
03-13-2009, 08:28 PM
Unfortunately can't use factory rods as I am having to narrow the big end width to B series width and diameter. But the rods will have to maintain the f20c length and pin size. Next aftermarket pistons will have to be used because of using ductile iron bores instead of the frm liners of the f20c. In order to get the displacement out of the engine the bore has to be larger than stock, so oem pistons are out for that reason. As far as water pumps go ill be using an electric waterpump so no parasitic loss there. The meziere on my b series gave me 8 hp to the wheels. Oil pump will be dry sump which also has the potential to increase hp due to scavenging and pulling vacuum on the crankcase.

jrobson
03-14-2009, 01:56 AM
Yes it would be pretty stupid to not go dry sump, with watepump I was thinking the same re electric but I've changed my mind, we'll until I've looked at their specs again but I'm not sure they handle high pressure well.

I go with custom everything, just because I can... Part of the reason for me for making the engine is to also show off our machining capability, so no stock parts here.

That nissan engine sounds interesting, if you can go that much over stock you could move the piston top ring right up to the top!

Slociviccoupe what are you doing for oil channels?

Slociviccoupe
03-14-2009, 10:28 AM
Are you talking about oil drains from the head or oil galley's for pressure lubrication? For oil drains, my cylinder banks are the same profile as the headgasket, so the oil drains will be mostly like stock, the oil galley to feed the mains is down the center of the block with drilled passages feeding the mains. The main web in the block will have a groove machined in it 1/8 wide X 1/8" deep to cool the back of the main bearing and provide oil to the 3 holes in the bearing.

I have a question for anyone who might know< you think the honda thrust bearing design will be sufficient? High horsepower honda 4 cylinders hardly ever have thrust bearing problems.

jrobson
03-14-2009, 10:31 AM
Yup, just wondering if you are going through the block or not. The thrust bearings will be fine.

Slociviccoupe
03-14-2009, 10:52 AM
yes, where the oil drain meet the block from the cylinder banks will be machined through. the oil galley will be fed from one end of the block by a -8an fitting.
we should start a new thread about this in the advanced engine theory and design as honda based v8. See who might be interested and what advice might be shed on the subject.

jrobson
03-14-2009, 11:14 AM
Yeah thats a good idea... I have no problem to contribute drawings and plans...

Slociviccoupe
03-14-2009, 12:20 PM
thread moved from main and rod journal thread to here. Talking about designing a honda based v8. I am using f20c heads while another member has a design with k series heads. any questions, comments, ect leave a reply. :dance:

Slociviccoupe
03-14-2009, 12:21 PM
thread being moved to "Honda based v8"

rbsjnh
03-14-2009, 12:46 PM
thread moved from main and rod journal thread to here. Talking about designing a honda based v8. I am using f20c heads while another member has a design with k series heads. any questions, comments, ect leave a reply. :dance:

:wow:

jrobson
03-14-2009, 01:20 PM
Okay here we go.

Specs to be:
2.9L
Bore = 88mm
Stroke = 60mm
CR = 9:1
V8 = 90 degrees
Heads = K24A1 (CRV) Modified Valvetrain.
Conrod = Journal 40mm, width 15.1mm - bearing (ACL Duraglide, they don't make Race bearings in 40mm sizes)
Mains = 45mm x 19.5mm - bearing (ACL Race)
Weight = Estimated 90-95kg, dressed, dry.

This is around the 10th design, it's getting quite mature.
I haven't put all the finishing touches on this one yet, but here is an earlier draft:
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c60/jrobson_1/V8Shell.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c60/jrobson_1/V8Shell-explode.jpg

For the crank I will look around and see what material is available locally, usually EN40B. For the rods I will either go with a steel from a us company or with MMC rods(At which point a bearing is no longer needed), I've found a helpful MMC supplier but they don't seem to produce that much material so getting stock from them is an issue... Same thing with the piston, I would like to use MMC but that depends if I can get material, and also for the sleeves. Hopefully the MMC supplier comes to the party otherwise it's all going to be conventional.

I'm going a different route than you with oiling, I'm not using the block at all for supplying or draining. I'll use 6082 for the block and cylinders, which is really our version of your 6061 that you get over there, for the mains cradle I'll use 7075. As mentioned before using a belt drive instead of the closed chain drive of the K series. Both heads driven from the front.

So far I have one head (K24A1), going to go look at another one tomorrow but doesn't sound like a CRV head so might have to pass it up but we'll see, the clutch (3-plate, 140mm C/C), Dry sump pump(I must just find it haha), electric water pump, but will replace it with a high pressure mechanical pump. I'll go pick up some wood next week to start with the prototyping.

If someone has good info where to find a starter ring gear around 180mm I would appreciate it, some or other bike starter setup should work. I've tried emailing Hartley but the emails just bounced back.

Comments / Questions... Please post.

Slociviccoupe
03-14-2009, 01:32 PM
put the starter in the middle of the v like the northstar v8. The stock k or f series starter will fit. Your block design is just like mine with removable cylinder banks. Best part is later on you can change deck height just by machining new cylinder banks. Id be carefull with 7075. If anything ever happens to the block its not weldable. Also 7071 & 7075 is very brittle. I do not know how to take a cad file and post it as a picture, unfortunately Im not wanting to share my drawings, I hope that no one with more money takes our ideas and beats us to it. My cylinders are sealed to the block with orings around the oil drains and cylinders, also every head stud is doweled.

jrobson
03-14-2009, 01:38 PM
The stock ring gear is too big! Hah well I don't mind, whoever wants to do it first can, I know how long I've worked on this, it's not simple or easy, but I don't have cash to do it right now, the economic melt down is hitting hard!
Only the mains cradle is 7075, it's a small piece to machine again if there is a problem. The most time I spent so far on this is for machining purposes, it's one thing to design something, it's quite another to design it so that it is easily machinable, I only have a 3 axis so I need to keep that in mind and not get to exotic.

Slociviccoupe
03-14-2009, 01:47 PM
your design is easily machinable with a 3 axis, also the removable cylinders allows you to work with smaller billets. Im goin with 4340 for the crank. Lycoming aircraft cranks are made out of 4340. For the crank it is going to be roughed to shape using wire edm machining, than sent to castillo for final grinding. the edm machining cuts the cost of the crank a lot. Im planning on keeping the nose of the crank the same as the f20c so that I can use a fliudampner up front. In my design im using the stock s2k tranny, so Im able to use the stock ring gear. Im guessing you need a smaller ring gear so that you can mount the motor low in the chassis.

jrobson
03-14-2009, 01:51 PM
I've never thought much of EDM'ing the crank, can you explain more? I can rough it on the mill and lathe and then have it ground, from my experience EDM machining is f*&king expensive! 4340 is well know and a safe bet EN40B is pretty much the same thing.

Yes correct, smaller ring gear you can mount lower, but also less inertia... If I can find a S2000 box I would like to use that as well, but they are very difficult to find locally, and too expensive to bring one in.

signalpuke
03-14-2009, 02:04 PM
What kind of budget does this require? And do either of you plan to do a small production run?
Also, if you two do not mind, what chassis are these motors for?
I would love to see the S2000 sourced motor to fit back in that chassis.

jrobson
03-14-2009, 02:07 PM
I have a small fiat body that needs an engine, this will go in there, wish I had a S2000, that would have been cool. No production run on this side, I don't think many people have a use for such an engine, most people want a drop in plug and play kit, maybe in future. Budget $6K, since most of the machining is free.

kb58
03-14-2009, 03:14 PM
Okay here we go.

Specs to be:
Weight = Estimated 90-95kg, dressed, dry.
The block or the entire engine?

My complete K24A1 with alt, starter, intake, and exhaust is 283 lbs. How does adding a second cylinder head remove 74 lbs?

jrobson
03-14-2009, 03:44 PM
Yup entire engine minus exhaust manifolds.

What you see in the pictures calculates to 27.2kg, and there is still a bit to shave off it.

In the 45mm motor I completed with a full(and heavier than usual) valvetrain the cad calculation was 85kg excluding oil pump, alternator, clutch and bolts. This motor is a little bit bigger but the valvetrain is lighter so it should come out to nearly the same, but we'll see... It won't be anywhere near 130kg!

slo blue
03-14-2009, 07:30 PM
Are you redesigning the rocker arms so the valve cover seals behind the cam gears and making valve covers since you are using a belt in place of a chain?

Have you ever made a motor with a bolt on cylinder? One would think under higher revs the cylinder could move around. If it would happen the timing belt would become loose or tight causing problems. Not saying it will happen but could happen.

Slociviccoupe
03-14-2009, 09:02 PM
hyabusa has bolt on cylinders. As long as the lower block is designed right and rigid enough you won't have a problem. My cylinders will have bolt on braces linking the 2 cylinder banks together.
again www.h1v8.com is my inspiration for this project. But want to do it with honda heads and basic geometry.
Wire edm for roughing the crank will take less time and tooling. basically the machinist will setup the machine by putting your billet log in a tank of fluid that is conductive. There is a fine wire that looks like welding wire that feeds from top to bottom of the tank. High pulses of electricity flow through the wire. The electricity actually blasts away molecules of metal that it touches. Instead of ending up with a pile of metal chips, a dull endmill, and a roughed out crankshaft. You will have a pile of wire, a roughed out crankshaft and larger peices of material that were where your rod throw and main journals are. The journals would be prety much square. Then the crank can be sent to a crankshaft specialist for final grinding of the journals and mains. Including the radius' for the bearings. then drilled for oil holes, then ballanced and micropolished.
And Yes I plan on a production based motor or a kit built motor for the s chassis after I have on in my s2k. My design Will be able to drop into an s2k with original mounts, have a/c, factory alternator, and bolt to oem transmission. I will produce everything that is custom machined, but the customer could use used heads or buy them from honda. same with the bearings, mains are from an nsx and rod bearings are from the itr. Headgasket is oem f20c. Stock or aftermarket parts could be used depending on the customer's budget.
Engine management will be an aem ems for that chassis. Using additional coil and injector outputs for the 4 other cylinders. Then changing the programing in the aem pro to change the firing order. That way its plug and play, the gauge cluster, power steering and a/c still work.

Slociviccoupe
03-14-2009, 09:31 PM
just thinking, did you keep the deck height of the k24? the deck height is taller on the k24 than that on the f20c. My deck height is 8.815" and has over a 6" length rod. Any reason why you went with such a short stroke with a tall block if you kept the stock deck height? With removable cylinders you have the ability to change deck height just by changing cylinder banks, lengthening timing chain/ belt, and redesigning the intake manifold. If you kept the stock deck height of the k24 you could put the f22c 90.7mm stroke crank in it, have a 6.25" length rod and still be able to rev the crap out of it. My original k24 was that combination. destroked it from 99mm to 90.7 and gained rod ratio.
also any reason for a belt? a belt adds length to an engine, more maintnance, and the possibility of less revability.
And yes s2k transmissions are expensive. But their silky smooth. And only the top bolts of the s2k trany line up with a k series. and the input shaft length is different. Also the K series has a flange on the back of the crankshaft for centering the flywheel where as the f20c does not. this would have to be omitted in your design if you were to use the s2k trany. But you will not be able to mount the engine low because of the bellhousing. It actually bolts to the oil pan and is at the same plane as the oil pan. So dry sump is not gaining me clearance for ride height. just simplifying design, and the possibility of increased hp, and peice of mind that there should be no oil starvation. Also the pump being external makes maintance easier, no pulling the pan if an oil problem occurs.
My first mockup was made from high density blue foam. Used a hotwire to cut the cylinder banks using headgasket as a template. Cut engine case out and glued cylinders to it. Its crude, but it works, and cheap.
:D

Slociviccoupe
03-14-2009, 10:01 PM
tilton should be able to make you a ring gear. problem i see with changing diameter of the ring gear is now you don't have the mechanical advantage of the gear reduction. Now you have twice as many cylinders to turn over. And now the engine will be firing every 90 degrees of crankshaft rotation. Im skeptical if the oem starter with factory diameter flywheel ring gear will be able to turn over my engine. My compression ratio will be 12:1 or even 12.5:1.
Im guessing with your low compression numbers this is to be a forced induction motor, possibly turbo. Now I see why you may be using such a short stroke. Keep in mind though the honda b16 has a 77mm stroke, and has an almost perfect 1.74:1 RS ratio and good piston speeds. My civic type r engine was a tall deck short stroke engine from the factory. A 1.8 block with a 1.6 crank with longer rods and different pistons. I think that your displacement because of the short stroke might hinder your final outcome in power ratings. But honda's irl motor is a 3.0liter v8 that pumps out close to 800 hp @18000 rpm. that is piston speeds where the piston moves up and down 300 times per second.
As far as inertia and rotational mass, for high rpm you want a heavy crankshaft. Especially on the counterweight end. And run as light of a rod as possible. My rod journals will be hollow to offset the weight of the second connecting rod on the same journal. Inertia also has an affect on torque, a light flywheel you will have less torque. And drivability will suffer. Same thing with the short stroke you won't have much torque.
Carrol shelby once said, "horsepower sells cars, torque wins races."
bore? stroke? rod ratio? piston speeds are all a mathmatical equation that basically changes the characteristics of the engine on where the powerband will be. Long stroke the power comes on sooner at a lower rpm. and vise versa. Too short of a stroke the piston speeds get so low that you can't fill the cylinders completely. they also have the tendency to detonate at Bottom Dead Center. Putting the 84mm stroke from the f20c in a k24 block is not a desirable combination, either is the 86mm stroke from the k20. Piston speeds are too low. Im sure an F1 engineer could make a screamer that would work, but I don't know of any.
Im glad there is someone out there attempting the same thing im doing.
Id like to know what the market might be. How many people would be interested.

jrobson
03-14-2009, 11:29 PM
I don't see any problems with the cylinders moving. I recently made a punch and die set for someone to cut triangles out of steel strips, I had to have the triangles in the die wire cut, it was tiny but the cost was $15 a piece, if I calculate how much material was removed it will work out to over $4000 to rough a crank!! Okay this required a precise tolerance and for roughing it could go faster but I don't see how it could be faster or cheaper than a mill. But I've never worked on an EDM myself. For me of course it is far cheaper to let the mill just run and chip away for the day.

The deck height is 7", rod is 4.71", I don't care much for the RS ratio but it worked out to 2:1, there are good reasons for going with a short stroke, a big flat plane motor is going to make you piss blood from vibration, although might be a hit with the ladies! You won't see the same rpm with a V8 than with a similarly stroked and bored inline 4. I can modify a S2000 bellhousing to have it sit a bit lower if needs be, but the motor is not made for a specific box at all, requires an adaptor plate between the motor and box that make it all work, the short stroke and low cr won't be an issue for the starter to turn, but if so there are many starters on the market that are internally geared. The short stroke lower torque motor also makes an easier life for the box.

I think tilton would be a lot of bling bling, I would like to buy a bike part over the counter/internet rather than having something custom made, otherwise I can design one no problem, with a new pinion. Just use the torque multiplier device to increase torque :cool:. The holes in the counterweight is not for weight saving ;) and also the short stroke allows for a stiffer crank. Conrod weight is easy to get down, piston weight though, not that easy.

kevinoneill
03-15-2009, 05:40 AM
First of all, your both blowing my mind here. Your actually making your own engines! I aspire to just build a car (buy a bunch of parts and put them together)... you guys are making your own parts.

I'm curious what your backgrounds are? How does one come to be capable of, literally, "engine building" ?

zerotraction
03-15-2009, 06:45 AM
Have you guys though of designing your own heads as well? Not saying the F series head wont produce power, but a more vertical intake port would compliment your setup alot better than a f20c, at least in my opinion. But to keep costs down, the f20c is not a bad solution either.
Are you guys planning on designing the cams as well, seeing as the firing order will have to totally different? That is going to be a huge task :wow:
Chain driven cams? How high are you guys planning on revving these? Taken into consideration the limitations of a conventional mechanical valvetrain?

Designing a new head would also allow you to close up the included angle between the intake and exhaust valves, making a wider pentroof and allowing you to use a wider dome on your piston so you don't have such a steep triangular dome for higher compression ratios.

But once again, cost is an issue here. Although, your replacing pretty much everything else in the head from scratch, the only thing honda is going to be head casting anyways.
As far as inertia and rotational mass, for high rpm you want a heavy crankshaft.
This seems counter-intuitive to me. Dont forget alot of the power these small v8's is from transient response, not horsepower/torque numbers. The faster it sweeps through the rev range, the quicker the vehicle will be. Using lighter components allows it to gain RPM at a faster rate. If you want a high rpm v8, open up to a flat plane and you can lose the extra heavy counterweights that are inherent to the design.

zerotraction
03-15-2009, 06:51 AM
Im guessing with your low compression numbers this is to be a forced induction motor, possibly turbo. Now I see why you may be using such a short stroke. Keep in mind though the honda b16 has a 77mm stroke, and has an almost perfect 1.74:1 RS ratio and good piston speeds. My civic type r engine was a tall deck short stroke engine from the factory. A 1.8 block with a 1.6 crank with longer rods and different pistons. I think that your displacement because of the short stroke might hinder your final outcome in power ratings. But honda's irl motor is a 3.0liter v8 that pumps out close to 800 hp @18000 rpm. that is piston speeds where the piston moves up and down 300 times per second.
As far as inertia and rotational mass, for high rpm you want a heavy crankshaft. Especially on the counterweight end. And run as light of a rod as possible. My rod journals will be hollow to offset the weight of the second connecting rod on the same journal. Inertia also has an affect on torque, a light flywheel you will have less torque. And drivability will suffer. Same thing with the short stroke you won't have much torque.
Carrol shelby once said, "horsepower sells cars, torque wins races."
bore? stroke? rod ratio? piston speeds are all a mathmatical equation that basically changes the characteristics of the engine on where the powerband will be. Long stroke the power comes on sooner at a lower rpm. and vise versa. Too short of a stroke the piston speeds get so low that you can't fill the cylinders completely. they also have the tendency to detonate at Bottom Dead Center. Putting the 84mm stroke from the f20c in a k24 block is not a desirable combination, either is the 86mm stroke from the k20. Piston speeds are too low. Im sure an F1 engineer could make a screamer that would work, but I don't know of any.
Im glad there is someone out there attempting the same thing im doing.
Id like to know what the market might be. How many people would be interested.
Slocivic, what are your motor dimensions going to be? Bore/stroke peak power production etc etc.

Slociviccoupe
03-15-2009, 07:54 AM
84mm stroke stock for the f20c. Bore will be 90mm. This gives me 4275cc's. I chose the shorter stroke so that I can keep piston speeds down, also keping a good rod stroke ratio. The engine design can take any stroke from 84-99mm. Bore can also vary from 87-90mm because of the dart sleeves. Just depends on the horsepower goals of the customer and how much displacement they want.
A motor of my design with a 90.7mm stroke and a 90mm bore displaces 4616cc's, Sure Its a big motor but won't have the revability that the shorter stroke motor will have.
there Is also another option of 88mm bore X 88mm stroke that gives 4282cc's, but will be loosing rod length. Also keeping the stock stroke of the f20c with the stock deck height I already know the rod length which will be stock 6.023" center to center. Will be keeping the wrist pin the same as the f20c .905 pin bore and .858 width. But the Big end of the connecting rods will be the size form a b series and essentially use b series oem honda bearings.
To answer the question about a new cylinder head, the answer is $$$$, and honda already has a realy good design. That only needs minor improvements. Also for the engine to be afordable and to be built by someone the use of a stock head is the best choice.
I will be having the right cylinder bank leaned over 45 degrees in the car, with the timing chain in the stock location. The left cylinder bank will be offset forward, with the cylinder head turned around 180 degrees from the right cylinder head. This putting the timing chain in the rear of the engine for the left cylinder bank ( drivers side). This puts my intake ports towards the center of the engine and the exhaust out the side, like any conventional v8.
If i were to just put the timing chain directly to the crank at the back of the block, it would be essentially turning the cams backwards for the left 9 drivers side ) cylinder bank. To fix this there will be a gear drive off the crank, 1:1 ratio that will reverse the rotation so that standard camshafts will be used. So also any aftermarket camshaft ( ummm, cough, hytech) can and will be used. The lower timing gear will then be on the idler gear that is off the crank. All that is required is to shorten the timing chain which I have done.
As for firing order its very simple and requires nothing custom except the programing in aem pro for the aem ems.
picture this..... the stock motor fires 1-3-4-2. And thats designated by honda in the cam profile. cylinder number one starting at the timing chain and ending cylinder number 4 at the rear of the engine.
now, my cylinder banks are labeled 1a for the right bank ( passenger side), and 1b for the reversed cylinder head on the left cylinder bank (drivers side).
Firing order follows stock firing order with the exception that a piston is up at tdc every 90 degrees. instead of 180 degrees of crankshaft rotation.
So the first cylinder to Fire will be the first cylinder to fire in the original firing order, cylinder 1a on the passenger side cylinder bank. Next to fire is cylinder 1b on the drivers side cylinder bank which is up against the firewall closest to the rear timing chain because this head is rotated 180 degrees from the other cylinder head. Next cylinder to fire is 3A, then 3b on the opposite side of the engine. Then 4a, 4b. then 2a, 2b. A cylinder will be at top dead center every 90 degrees of crankshaft rotation and will fire every cylinder after 720 degrees of crankshaft rotation instead of 360 like a 4 cylinder.

My background consists of,
was into jet ski racing, raced a 99 sea doo xp limited. originally has a 951cc engine. After building the bottom end with steel caged bearings, truing and welding the crank, and honda cr500 pistons and rods. Ended up with 1050cc's and a boat that went 84mph on the water.
Was A honda mechanic for 3 years, honda certified. Not enough money to work at a dealership.
Ive been a certified cnc machinist for 3 years. Also Manual machining.
Going to school to be a mechanical engineer.
Have had many projects along the way, have my 2000 silver civic coupe. Had a vortech supercharged b16b, when the ring land let go put an itr crank, manley rods, and wiseco pistons. Motor made 502 hp before the sleeves let go.
I designed but never produced a sequential shift kit for the k series transmission, turned a k series transmission into a transaxle like that of a porsche. Started designing a v8 based on the k24 block because of deck height with a k20a2 head, but stopped when I couldn't control vtc on 2 cylinder banks and the computer be able to distinguish where the intake cam was like what degree of advance. there would be 4 cam sensors. So bought my s2000 because i wanted one since i worked at honda. Had a blown up f20c from work so started taking it apart and realized it is a very good design with the cam drive system, the tensioner in the head not the block, and one of honda's best motors produced.

jrobson
03-15-2009, 08:02 AM
Kevin, my view is as long as I have the machines standing, and with the current way things are, idling much more than they need to, might as well put them to work! It's a first, so it might not work out all too well and it certainly won't be easy, but the second one sure will be much easier and better. :dance: Damn I've been machining for over 10 years now! Makes me feel old saying that...:(

Zerotraction, I was very keen on my own head, but I can't afford it unfortunately, it is "possible" to do it on a 3 axis but really that is just too much material cost as it's going to require some innovative and most likely expensive jigging, so finding a way to use the honda heads is an alternative... Hey I'm also keeping the stock valves!!! :D
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c60/jrobson_1/Engineheads-no-valvetrain.jpg

I just bought the second head today... picking it up on Tusday night... But then the V8 will have to wait for a while because there is something else I need to work on for a while.


I just spoke to a guy today, cams are no problems this side to get done. I'm moving to a belt driven system, not terribly high rpm's, 12500max.

Slocivic your firing order is wrong.

zerotraction
03-15-2009, 08:12 AM
84mm stroke stock for the f20c. Bore will be 90mm. This gives me 4275cc's. I chose the shorter stroke so that I can keep piston speeds down, also keping a good rod stroke ratio. The engine design can take any stroke from 84-99mm. Bore can also vary from 87-90mm because of the dart sleeves. Just depends on the horsepower goals of the customer and how much displacement they want.
A motor of my design with a 90.7mm stroke and a 90mm bore displaces 4616cc's, Sure Its a big motor but won't have the revability that the shorter stroke motor will have.
there Is also another option of 88mm bore X 88mm stroke that gives 4282cc's, but will be loosing rod length. Also keeping the stock stroke of the f20c with the stock deck height I already know the rod length which will be stock 6.023" center to center. Will be keeping the wrist pin the same as the f20c .905 pin bore and .858 width. But the Big end of the connecting rods will be the size form a b series and essentially use b series oem honda bearings.
To answer the question about a new cylinder head, the answer is $$$$, and honda already has a realy good design. That only needs minor improvements. Also for the engine to be afordable and to be built by someone the use of a stock head is the best choice.
I will be having the right cylinder bank leaned over 45 degrees in the car, with the timing chain in the stock location. The left cylinder bank will be offset forward, with the cylinder head turned around 180 degrees from the right cylinder head. This putting the timing chain in the rear of the engine for the left cylinder bank ( drivers side). This puts my intake ports towards the center of the engine and the exhaust out the side, like any conventional v8.
If i were to just put the timing chain directly to the crank at the back of the block, it would be essentially turning the cams backwards for the left 9 drivers side ) cylinder bank. To fix this there will be a gear drive off the crank, 1:1 ratio that will reverse the rotation so that standard camshafts will be used. So also any aftermarket camshaft ( ummm, cough, hytech) can and will be used. The lower timing gear will then be on the idler gear that is off the crank. All that is required is to shorten the timing chain which I have done.
As for firing order its very simple and requires nothing custom except the programing in aem pro for the aem ems.
picture this..... the stock motor fires 1-3-4-2. And thats designated by honda in the cam profile. cylinder number one starting at the timing chain and ending cylinder number 4 at the rear of the engine.
now, my cylinder banks are labeled 1a for the right bank ( passenger side), and 1b for the reversed cylinder head on the left cylinder bank (drivers side).
Firing order follows stock firing order with the exception that a piston is up at tdc every 90 degrees. instead of 180 degrees of crankshaft rotation.
So the first cylinder to Fire will be the first cylinder to fire in the original firing order, cylinder 1a on the passenger side cylinder bank. Next to fire is cylinder 1b on the drivers side cylinder bank which is up against the firewall closest to the rear timing chain because this head is rotated 180 degrees from the other cylinder head. Next cylinder to fire is 3A, then 3b on the opposite side of the engine. Then 4a, 4b. then 2a, 2b. A cylinder will be at top dead center every 90 degrees of crankshaft rotation and will fire every cylinder after 720 degrees of crankshaft rotation instead of 360 like a 4 cylinder.

My background consists of,
was into jet ski racing, raced a 99 sea doo xp limited. originally has a 951cc engine. After building the bottom end with steel caged bearings, truing and welding the crank, and honda cr500 pistons and rods. Ended up with 1050cc's and a boat that went 84mph on the water.
Was A honda mechanic for 3 years, honda certified. Not enough money to work at a dealership.
Ive been a certified cnc machinist for 3 years. Also Manual machining.
Going to school to be a mechanical engineer.
Have had many projects along the way, have my 2000 silver civic coupe. Had a vortech supercharged b16b, when the ring land let go put an itr crank, manley rods, and wiseco pistons. Motor made 502 hp before the sleeves let go.
I designed but never produced a sequential shift kit for the k series transmission, turned a k series transmission into a transaxle like that of a porsche. Started designing a v8 based on the k24 block because of deck height with a k20a2 head, but stopped when I couldn't control vtc on 2 cylinder banks and the computer be able to distinguish where the intake cam was like what degree of advance. there would be 4 cam sensors. So bought my s2000 because i wanted one since i worked at honda. Had a blown up f20c from work so started taking it apart and realized it is a very good design with the cam drive system, the tensioner in the head not the block, and one of honda's best motors produced.
I definitely think the larger displacement engine is way to go with a 90 degree v8. Spinning such a motor at high of rpm... well, it may last but Im not sure for how long.

Slociviccoupe
03-15-2009, 08:13 AM
power production is estimated to be close to 500 with stock cams. with higher compression, hytech cams, valve train, cylinder head work, ect numbers should reach close to 700 hp. Redline will be 9k.
Sure there are plenty of v8's out there. Honda has one In their irl and indy crs, supposedly the audi rs4 has a honda designed engine in it. BUT, none of them have vtec. And none of them are available to anyone unless you are a corporate race team. Even If you could get your hands on an IRL engine, there is no way it would survive on the street.
Thats where my design comes into play. The average joe who has the ability to assemble a honda 4 cylinder engine will be able to buy the block, cylinders, crank, rods, and timing components from me. Then pick up a set of used heads or new from honda if they choose, 2 headgaskets, and the other required parts like dry sump oil pump, electric waterpump, nsx main bearings, b16 rod bearings, aftermarket pistons to fit what ever their desired bore is. And assemble the engine with the instructions provided and drop into their s2k chassis. The engine will have honda reliability, be able to be put in a street car and driven daily, and have the ability to be affordable.
Im attempting to do what honda didn't and won't. Even if honda puts a v8 in the acura rl in 2015 one it may be too late, and two it will have all the cylinder deactivation, won't have the vtec that we all love that makes a honda a honda.
There is also the option of me producing a production based engine for sale If a customer doesn't want to source their own parts or assemble the engine.
I just got bored with what honda currently has to offer, sure ive built my b series, was on my to a k24 block, f22c crank, pistons and rods, and woo hoo 300hp na. But I always thought there could be more. Then the v8 came to mind. And If ferarri, astin martin, and other exotic sports cars canmake a production engine in flat plane crank design there should be no reason the honda crowd can't have a v8 also.

zerotraction
03-15-2009, 08:22 AM
power production is estimated to be close to 500 with stock cams. with higher compression, hytech cams, valve train, cylinder head work, ect numbers should reach close to 700 hp. Redline will be 9k.
Sure there are plenty of v8's out there. Honda has one In their irl and indy crs, supposedly the audi rs4 has a honda designed engine in it. BUT, none of them have vtec. And none of them are available to anyone unless you are a corporate race team. Even If you could get your hands on an IRL engine, there is no way it would survive on the street.
Thats where my design comes into play. The average joe who has the ability to assemble a honda 4 cylinder engine will be able to buy the block, cylinders, crank, rods, and timing components from me. Then pick up a set of used heads or new from honda if they choose, 2 headgaskets, and the other required parts like dry sump oil pump, electric waterpump, nsx main bearings, b16 rod bearings, aftermarket pistons to fit what ever their desired bore is. And assemble the engine with the instructions provided and drop into their s2k chassis. The engine will have honda reliability, be able to be put in a street car and driven daily, and have the ability to be affordable.
Im attempting to do what honda didn't and won't. Even if honda puts a v8 in the acura rl in 2015 one it may be too late, and two it will have all the cylinder deactivation, won't have the vtec that we all love that makes a honda a honda.
There is also the option of me producing a production based engine for sale If a customer doesn't want to source their own parts or assemble the engine.
I just got bored with what honda currently has to offer, sure ive built my b series, was on my to a k24 block, f22c crank, pistons and rods, and woo hoo 300hp na. But I always thought there could be more. Then the v8 came to mind. And If ferarri, astin martin, and other exotic sports cars canmake a production engine in flat plane crank design there should be no reason the honda crowd can't have a v8 also.

So your making a flat plane design? On second look, it looks like you'll both be running flat plane designs then. If it flat plane 90 degree the oem timing should work, at least from what I can see so far. Will get back to that in a few.

Slociviccoupe
03-15-2009, 08:29 AM
I do have a question about the firing order as it took me forever to come up with it. essentially im joining 2 ,4 cylinder engines together with a common crankshaft and common block. With the exception that I am basically turning the second 4 cylinder around 180 degrees from the other. this puts a timing chain at the rear of the engine. John hartley told me to label the cylinder banks 1a and 1b. then follow the original firing order of the stock engine but alternating cylinder banks from side to side.
so starting at the front of the engine the first cylinder to be at tdc will be cylinder number 1a. when the crankshaft is rotated 90 degrees the next cylinder to be up at tdc will be cylinder number 1b at the rear of the engine on the opposite cylinder bank closest the timing chain. Another 90 degrees of crankshaft the next piston up is 3a. Which essentially is 180 degrees total crankshaft rotation, which will be firing the next cylinder from the original firing order on that cylinder bank. My engine is 2 four cylinders joined together at a 90 degree v angle, with the exception the second cylinder bank is rotated 180 degrees from the other. so standard cylinder designation1-4 for one bank and 5-8 for the other bank does not apply.
If you have any ideas im open to suggestions. I came up with the firing order by drawing crank and cams and importing into 3d studio max, rotating them 90 degree incraments untill all cylinders have fired equaling 720 degrees of crankshaft rotation.

Slociviccoupe
03-15-2009, 08:35 AM
yes oem timing should work, each bank is just 90 degrees off from each other.
if anyone takes a look at their block, with the block sitting flat on the main girdle. the cylinders are straight up and down, 90 degrees from the surface the block is sitting on. now rotate the cylinders over 45 degrees to one side. the line where the block is split will now be the angle that the second set of cylinders will be on. thus a 90 degree v8. each cylinder bank 45 degrees from vertical. so setting the first cylinder bank at tdc, the other bank will be 90 degrees off. so when the crankshaft turns 90 degree rotation the opposite side cylinder bank will be at tdc with cylinder closest to the timing chain. this is only true in my design with the reversed cylinder head with a timing chain in the rear and one in front. allowing the intake ports to be in the center of the engine.

jrobson
03-15-2009, 08:37 AM
Okay sorry I misunderstood, I thought you have 1a front left and 1b front right, if 1b ir back right then you can run it the way you describe.

zerotraction
03-15-2009, 08:40 AM
yes oem timing should work, each bank is just 90 degrees off from each other.
if anyone takes a look at their block, with the block sitting flat on the main girdle. the cylinders are straight up and down, 90 degrees from the surface the block is sitting on. now rotate the cylinders over 45 degrees to one side. the line where the block is split will now be the angle that the second set of cylinders will be on. thus a 90 degree v8. each cylinder bank 45 degrees from vertical. so setting the first cylinder bank at tdc, the other bank will be 90 degrees off. so when the crankshaft turns 90 degree rotation the opposite side cylinder bank will be at tdc with cylinder closest to the timing chain. this is only true in my design with the reversed cylinder head with a timing chain in the rear and one in front. allowing the intake ports to be in the center of the engine.

Yep. From what I can see so far this works.

jrobson
03-15-2009, 09:15 AM
Found my spreadsheet... fun fack, F1 V8's use: 1-5-3-7-4-8-2-6
instead of the conventional:
1-8-3-6-4-5-2-7

I'm certainly not suggesting the F1 order, I think it's bad for low speed vibration of course, but apparently it works at high engine speed.

zerotraction
03-15-2009, 09:23 AM
You know, you guys can remove the counterweights on a flat plane 90degree v8 engine. Thats what makes them so appealing to racers. If you're going to use counterweights, you should change to a cross plane design. I see robson already modeled in counterweights to his crank.

You won't be able to achieve the rpm you guys are looking for with heavy counterweights.

jrobson
03-15-2009, 09:25 AM
I wouldn't go that far, but certainly has much less counterweights than dual plane cranks, like I said before, crank weighs less than 9kg.

zerotraction
03-15-2009, 09:37 AM
It was mostly aimed at Slocivics post about having heavy counterweights.
9kg is really, really light.

jrobson
03-15-2009, 09:41 AM
Oh okay, I have no idea what his crank looks like, certainly you need to add more counterweights if you have such long strokes and have them properly spaced as well, the short stroke motors are much easier to do. The problem is the 2nd order, the more stroke you have the worse it gets, engine mounts, engine bearings, driver etc will all take a beating unless you add counter balancing shafts and that in itself is a nightmare, for a motor with more than 75mm stroke I would go with a dual plane crank..

Slociviccoupe
03-15-2009, 09:46 AM
Im having the guy that john grudensky from hytech exhaust recomended from maring crankshaft specialties help me with the design of the counterweights. First I have to get the weight of the crower, cunningham, pauter, carillo, or any other good proven aftermarket rods with the smaller BE dimensions of the b series, the weight of the b16 rod bearings, weight of the wiseco pistons, pins, and ring pack. Then those combined weights will be factored into my crankshaft design. Other combinations will vary in weights and counterweight design.
I will be using a fluidamper for either the f or k series on the front of my crank to help minimize vibration and harmonics. Also the flywheel will be ballanced. The engine will be internally ballanced like a typical honda 4 cylinder.
Im glad there is interest in this thread.
One thing good about your timing belt design is that a belt will help surpress vibration and harmonics.

Slociviccoupe
03-15-2009, 09:50 AM
Im going to do some more research on ferarri and other exotic engine designs. Im sure they do not implement counterballance shafts.
The forces in a flat plane v8 are different from that of a typical 4 cylinder. In a 4 cylinder the forces on the main caps are an up and down motion/ vibration. where as the forces on a flat plane v8 are a side to side motion/ vibration on the mains.
Id like to see more of the new bmw m3 v8 engine and see what crank design is in it.

jrobson
03-15-2009, 09:50 AM
It will be cool to see what you come up with, I wanted to avoid that sort of complexity that you are talking about hence the reason for never even looking at a long stroke, 60mm was actually forced and not an ideal length that I wanted, which was more 45-52.5mm.

zerotraction
03-15-2009, 09:53 AM
Im having the guy that john grudensky from hytech exhaust recomended from maring crankshaft specialties help me with the design of the counterweights. First I have to get the weight of the crower, cunningham, pauter, carillo, or any other good proven aftermarket rods with the smaller BE dimensions of the b series, the weight of the b16 rod bearings, weight of the wiseco pistons, pins, and ring pack. Then those combined weights will be factored into my crankshaft design. Other combinations will vary in weights and counterweight design.
I will be using a fluidamper for either the f or k series on the front of my crank to help minimize vibration and harmonics. Also the flywheel will be ballanced. The engine will be internally ballanced like a typical honda 4 cylinder.
Im glad there is interest in this thread.
One thing good about your timing belt design is that a belt will help surpress vibration and harmonics.
Good call there. Can't counter a force that is unknown. Sounds like you guys have this fleshed out a whole lot more than I saw when I first read through the post. I thought your snout design was good because you can use the fluiddampr from the b series. How do you think the extra forces from 4 more cylinders will affect the damper? Will it be strong enough? It is better than nothing or stock though, Ill definitely agree there.

jrobson
03-15-2009, 09:57 AM
M3 is a dual plane. The largest Ferrari stroke that I have seen by doing a quick google is 81mm. Zerotraction it's been a few years on and off that I've been looking at it, but only now it is possible to actually build.
http://www.kenrockwell.com/bmw/images/m3-2007/crank-781.jpg

zerotraction
03-15-2009, 09:59 AM
Im going to do some more research on ferarri and other exotic engine designs. Im sure they do not implement counterballance shafts.
The forces in a flat plane v8 are different from that of a typical 4 cylinder. In a 4 cylinder the forces on the main caps are an up and down motion/ vibration. where as the forces on a flat plane v8 are a side to side motion/ vibration on the mains.
Id like to see more of the new bmw m3 v8 engine and see what crank design is in it.

The vibration issue is helped by having more power strokes, but the underlying issue of crank twist from the power stroke is still there. It just happens to be muted some by having more combustion events. I honestly don't see the need for too much counterweight unless your really spinning the engine really, really high.

zerotraction
03-15-2009, 10:00 AM
M3 is a dual plane. The largest Ferrari stroke that I have seen by doing a quick google is 81mm. Zerotraction it's been a few years on and off that I've been looking at it, but only now it is possible to actually build.
http://www.kenrockwell.com/bmw/images/m3-2007/crank-781.jpg

Same here, Ive had alot of crazy ideas like this. Call me Justin by the way guys.

zerotraction
03-15-2009, 10:00 AM
Check this out as well.
As both banks run like an inline-4 engine, there is second-order vibration. For a 90 flat-plane V8, the sum of second-order force generated in the 2 banks is - by simple vector analysis - 1.41 times (root-2) of the force generated by each of the inline-4 it consists of. And the direction of vibration is left-right instead of top-down. In other words, while displacement increases 100% compare with the inline-4, the second-order vibration increases just 41%. That makes the flat-plane V8 more refined than an inline-4 although it is not as smooth and quiet as cross-plane V8.

Slociviccoupe
03-15-2009, 10:04 AM
I will be contacting fluidamper in the future, telling them about my design and what i need. the damper may have to be made larger from the 4 cylinder version with the snout configuration of my crank.
For my timing drive system Im trying to impliment as many oem parts that I can, even If they have to be machined and modified to work. Definately a lot easier to take a factory part and turn and machine it than it is to make a whole new part. Taking the best from honda and putting it all into one.
In your drawing it looks like the lower engine case is also the oil pan/ sump. I noticed 4 bolt mains, but in this design you will have to seperate the engine case to assemble and serivec the rods. So Im guessing not an In car situation. My block has a simple lower case that impliments a machined finned plate for the oil pan, with bolt on sumps under each crank throw between the mains. This feeding the oil pump. This will allow me to assemble the crank in the block and be able to tighten the mains, then put the rods on the crank like typical engine building. and in car service by unbolting the oil pan/ sump. Your design is more like that of a split case motorcycle.
Its interesting that we have the same idea of a honda cylinder head based v8, but we are taking 2 different aproaches.

Slociviccoupe
03-15-2009, 10:10 AM
funny you posted that. I read that when reading about flat plane crank design.
There is another site that i found that has the formulas based on every aspect of the engine for designing the crank, counterballances if needed, ect.
Thing is I had no clue about what I was looking at or how to implement the formulas infront of me.
I am by no means an engineer, but do have a good knowledge of the workings of an engine. All I can do is look at what works and what doesn't work. Get the knowledge and opinions of those who do have more knowledge than me. I do Have 10 years of drafting and design CAD experiance, know how the machining process goes so can plan that into my design so that something is not hard to machine. Also being a mechanic know what it is like to work on something. While standing infront of a car at honda working on it, saying in my head if they just would have done it this way it would be easier, more cost effective, ect. So those thoughts are also going into my design. How to make it user friendly. That with basic engine knowledge anyone can put it together with instructions.

zerotraction
03-15-2009, 10:11 AM
I will be contacting fluidamper in the future, telling them about my design and what i need. the damper may have to be made larger from the 4 cylinder version with the snout configuration of my crank.
For my timing drive system Im trying to impliment as many oem parts that I can, even If they have to be machined and modified to work. Definately a lot easier to take a factory part and turn and machine it than it is to make a whole new part. Taking the best from honda and putting it all into one.
In your drawing it looks like the lower engine case is also the oil pan/ sump. I noticed 4 bolt mains, but in this design you will have to seperate the engine case to assemble and serivec the rods. So Im guessing not an In car situation. My block has a simple lower case that impliments a machined finned plate for the oil pan, with bolt on sumps under each crank throw between the mains. This feeding the oil pump. This will allow me to assemble the crank in the block and be able to tighten the mains, then put the rods on the crank like typical engine building. and in car service by unbolting the oil pan/ sump. Your design is more like that of a split case motorcycle.
Its interesting that we have the same idea of a honda cylinder head based v8, but we are taking 2 different aproaches.

It might not need to be but it would be a good idea to call I think. The fact that it runs smoother than I4 might cancel out the need for more dampening.

Slociviccoupe
03-15-2009, 10:15 AM
A friend of mine is putting 860hp to the ground with a built 2.0 b series in a sport fwd drag car. They have to by rules run an oem oil pump. the only way they are keeping the oil pump gears from cracking is by running a fluidamper. they even run an unmolested oem oil pump. no porting, smoothing of oil galley's, or shimming. Im a firm believer in a fluidamper.

jrobson
03-15-2009, 10:27 AM
That drawing was for a 45mm stroke motor to get it as small as possible, in the 60mm the sump will bolt on seperately.

Justin that posts refers to roughly 41% more vibration for the same size but that is just a rough generalisation, but good for estimating, if slocivic sticks with F20c stroke and bore then you get 41% increase, I'm dropping the stroke so it would be 41% more than a 1.45L inline 4 with same bore/stroke, probably a bit less vibration than a K20...

jrobson
03-15-2009, 10:35 AM
Its interesting that we have the same idea of a honda cylinder head based v8, but we are taking 2 different aproaches.
Yeah but I'm taking the easy route! :silly: I think your engine will be quite difficult to design, especially if you want to resell it, I don't envy your task!

Slociviccoupe
03-15-2009, 10:35 AM
my living room is literally full of dissasembled honda engines. K24 block with f20c crank, f20c block all oem components, b16 block and crank, j35 shortblock, c32a shortblock. Headgaskets, pistons, and rods scattered about. Posterboard with full size drawings, pages and pages of notes, a tv and my cad computer.

Slociviccoupe
03-15-2009, 10:43 AM
once the design is sorted out, taking the oem components and modifying them will become an easy operation. for the gear drive to reverse the rotation of the chain for the rear cylinder bank im using existing f20c cam gears. for the front chain the original timing gear will have the oil pump drive gear machined off because the number one main now occupies that space. The front and rear seals will be that of the f20c. So going to honda with a parts list of items to complete the engine is possible. also for any future problems, there is a local honda dealer almost everywhere. for exaplme your traveling across the country and blow a headgasket. you can get one from autozone to get you by. and most autoparts stores carry honda size bearings. And if oem components don't wear out in a production honda engine. Using them is my best bet. then modifying them for my use. These modified timing components will be included with the block kit. That is if there is a market and I can get production costs down.
I just want the "holy SH*T" when I have f42c1 on my license plate, then pop the hood of my stock apearing s2k and there sits 2 cylinder heads, 2 sets of billet cylinders and a billet block. With all accessories bolted to the engine and functioning.

Slociviccoupe
03-15-2009, 10:48 AM
I literally hate the internat, hackers, and virus'. just lost my entire cad file that I had done. Well glad I still have my hand drawings and notes. Big setback today just now.

zerotraction
03-15-2009, 11:23 AM
I literally hate the internat, hackers, and virus'. just lost my entire cad file that I had done. Well glad I still have my hand drawings and notes. Big setback today just now.

No fun dude.
Both you guys, please please please keep this thread updated with cad drawings, experiences and insights. I live for these kinds of threads, and I know many other who do as well. Consider becoming a supporter sometime.

k2wings
03-15-2009, 11:41 AM
i finally found the bill gates of honda "Engine Building":worship::worship:

Slociviccoupe
03-15-2009, 12:03 PM
what measurement did you end up for cylinder stagger? with the b16 rod width of .858", factoring in .020" side clearance. which is .01 between rods and .005 between rod and crank journal. I ended up with .878" cylinder stagger. Also ended up with a rod journal 1.736" wide not including the radius on the rod journal.

zerotraction
03-15-2009, 12:17 PM
More info;
While it may be true that flatplane V8s are less refined than crossplane (The flat-plane crank pins produce vibrations, being 180 opposed and thus lacking rotational balance, unless balance shafts are used - which is actually rare), refinement is not a priority for sports/race cars: light weight pistons and conrods and a short stroke "over square" configuration greatly reduce this "second-order vibration". More importantly, as a flatplane crankshaft does not require counterweights, it has less mass and a lower moment of inertia, providing higher rpm and more rapid acceleration.
Transient response is king. Also when finalizing the bottom end guys, make sure to take into account what bottom end your head was designed for and the operating range. Having a larger rod ratio will pull air through the port in spikes, meaning that shorter rod ratios need more port volume due to the changes in piston acceleration. They will still flow the same volume, just in different ways. If you decide to stroke, rev over the intended rpm range, or even severely destroke a motor keep in mind the ports were designed for the original motor.

You probably have already thought about this but Im tossing it out as food for thought and idea bouncing.
Also, it appears flat plane v8's are notorious knockers if you have a heavy moving mass. I would definitely suggest making everything as light as possible to counter this or you will have some serious vibrations. Reciprocating weight seems to be the enemy in these motors.
http://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=179471&page=1

Slociviccoupe
03-15-2009, 12:37 PM
definately good you mentioned that. yes I have taken that into account. using the stock stroke, deck height, and rod length of the f20c. which the stock cylinder head was designed for. only thing im changing is bore diameter, compression, cams, Intake runner length, plenum volume, and header design. will be using aftermarket parts that have already been proven for the f20c.

zerotraction
03-15-2009, 12:41 PM
definately good you mentioned that. yes I have taken that into account. using the stock stroke, deck height, and rod length of the f20c. which the stock cylinder head was designed for. only thing im changing is bore diameter, compression, cams, Intake runner length, plenum volume, and header design. will be using aftermarket parts that have already been proven for the f20c.

This thing would be a monster with the new IPS cams they are developing for the f20/22cs.
Found some more counterweight info as well, and some more insight into the hayabusa design and how it works.
I also put some more info in my previous posts which I editeded so if check those out if you can too I threw in a great link.
Here's that busa link.
http://forums.autosport.com/showthread.php?threadid=95047
Ill keep looking for stuff.

Slociviccoupe
03-15-2009, 01:08 PM
Im partial to hytech, john grudenski has helped me soo much with my ideas. He is such a nice guy. He comes from the formula atlantic series, designing cams, and exhaust for the toyota engines. Ips is a great company but with the issues with the k series and tensioners because of camshaft lobe design. I lean towards hytech where they have done laser analasys on these engines. designing camshafts that improve horsepower but do not put extreme angles on the valvetrain. Also hytech offers 9 different camshaft profiles for the f20c.
They are currently making close to 300-350 hp on a stock block, stock compression f20c. Using 50mm twm itb's, their cams, valvetrain, and hytech header, with aem ems for tuning.

Slociviccoupe
03-15-2009, 01:15 PM
ive spoken to John hartley personally. He was eager to help and share ideas, untill he realized that I may be competition to his engine. Also realized that I was serious and not asking stupid questions. He is an entraprenuer. He did something because he wanted to. And it worked. He has a design patten on the reverse gear drive at the end of the crank. My design uses that design. If I go into production I will have to buy rights to his pattend. I have spoken to him about this. I don't see how im direct competition when his engine is smaller in displacemnet and meant for motorcycle engined kit cars. Where as My engine is solely meant as a direct replacement for the s2k chassis.

zerotraction
03-15-2009, 02:18 PM
ive spoken to John hartley personally. He was eager to help and share ideas, untill he realized that I may be competition to his engine. Also realized that I was serious and not asking stupid questions. He is an entraprenuer. He did something because he wanted to. And it worked. He has a design patten on the reverse gear drive at the end of the crank. My design uses that design. If I go into production I will have to buy rights to his pattend. I have spoken to him about this. I don't see how im direct competition when his engine is smaller in displacemnet and meant for motorcycle engined kit cars. Where as My engine is solely meant as a direct replacement for the s2k chassis.

IPS has not had tensioner issues to my knowledge, skunk2 was infamous for those destroyed motors. Im plenty familiar with hytech as well and John makes quality products for those with patience. Definitely still a solid decision in my opinion.
Have you looked at how a 90 degree v8 will fit in the chassis, including manifolding? It is a pretty wide motor, and the central intake manifolds can sit pretty high, do you have any solutions for this?

Slociviccoupe
03-15-2009, 02:32 PM
yes i am looking into weather or not it will fit or not in the s chassis. I will be getting a front clip soon from a member on s2ki.com after he takes what he wants and needs from it. My engine is 28.9" in width from widest point to widest point of the valve covers. As far as the intake goes I will be using jenvy/ hayward lower manifold used on their itb setup. Will be omitting the itb's. but will be bolting the velocity stacks to the lower manifold with an o ring seal. The velocity stack will be welded to a sheet metal aluminum intake manifold with the plenum designed by endyn. With a single throttle body, diameter chosen by endyn. Not sure if I am going to put the injector in the top of the plenum aimed at the velocity stack or put the injector in the runner aimed at the back of the intake valve like honda does. If this becomes too tall will be sourcing a billet head flange with injector pockets machined into it and be using curved intake runners.
Only problem is i will have the starter in the middle of the valley between the cylinders and possibly the alternator. Or I might hang the alternator on the side of the engine opposite the a/c compressor.

Slociviccoupe
03-15-2009, 02:35 PM
john will be making the headers based on the information he has from the s2k based products they sell. He already knows primary and secondary diameters and lengths. Will be using a tri y configuration and as long as possible.
best thing about the s2k chassis is it is a mirror image. there is the same amount of room for exhaust down the drivers side as there is down the passenger side.

blue2000em1
03-15-2009, 03:51 PM
This seems like a good idea but there's more engineering than what meets the eye.Did you use to be a engineer at Honda designing motors???

Slociviccoupe
03-15-2009, 04:09 PM
nope not an engineer for honda, just a certified honda mechanic. Certified cnc machinist. Going to school for mechanical engineering with an automotive background. Have various honda motors in my living room dissasembled, measuring them out with a dial caliper, bore mic, and height gauge. Getting advice from engine machinists and engine builders. Using the internet for information. Ive been working on this design for over a year now and it won't be till another 6 months that I have a pair of billet cylinder banks in my hands.

k2wings
03-16-2009, 12:14 AM
when you actually complete this, not only will you make various car magazine covers, but im sure you will get a few phone calls from honda wanting you to come work for them

jrobson
03-16-2009, 12:59 AM
what measurement did you end up for cylinder stagger? with the b16 rod width of .858", factoring in .020" side clearance. which is .01 between rods and .005 between rod and crank journal. I ended up with .878" cylinder stagger. Also ended up with a rod journal 1.736" wide not including the radius on the rod journal.

18.5mm offset and 34mm journal width. 1mm clearance on the rod big ends.

Weight of the rods and pistons are by design, you cannot cut more unless you get exotic metals, which are really difficult to get and expensive!
Personally I don't pay attention to R/S ratio, it is what it comes to, I made the motor as small as possible with the deck as short as possibe, the rod that connects the piston to the crank then ends up with 2:1.

Slociviccoupe
03-16-2009, 02:22 AM
k2wings, notice it says you race airplanes. What do you fly? and is it redbull or a reno plane? When I workewd at steen aero down here in palm bay. we built the pitts s1-ss and the steen skybolt. I did all the cad for the cut files for the wings and the plans. Then we were working on a project for a customer that wanted to compete red bull over seas. but with a biplane not a mono wing. we took a lycoming 580 6 cylinder. Put forged pistons, custom connecting rods made to our specs by our machine shop, custom ground cam, and a vortech modular supercharger running 32 pounds of boost. We had to make a girdle to keep the heads on the cylinders. Had 2 intercoolers and methanol injection. Bley up lycomings dyno at 680hp @3500 rpm. Unfortunately red bull series banned the use of a supercharger, and banned us from using a biplane. They said it was unknown what a pylon would do to the flight characteristics if the plane were to fly through one. It might get caught in the wing and down the airplane.
Ive had a few amazing jobs, this being one of them. Eventually I want my own business designing and selling aftermarket performance products. If some one wants something made, take the part, make it better, and produce it.

k2wings
03-16-2009, 02:03 PM
k2wings, notice it says you race airplanes. What do you fly? and is it redbull or a reno plane? When I workewd at steen aero down here in palm bay. we built the pitts s1-ss and the steen skybolt. I did all the cad for the cut files for the wings and the plans. Then we were working on a project for a customer that wanted to compete red bull over seas. but with a biplane not a mono wing. we took a lycoming 580 6 cylinder. Put forged pistons, custom connecting rods made to our specs by our machine shop, custom ground cam, and a vortech modular supercharger running 32 pounds of boost. We had to make a girdle to keep the heads on the cylinders. Had 2 intercoolers and methanol injection. Bley up lycomings dyno at 680hp @3500 rpm. Unfortunately red bull series banned the use of a supercharger, and banned us from using a biplane. They said it was unknown what a pylon would do to the flight characteristics if the plane were to fly through one. It might get caught in the wing and down the airplane.
Ive had a few amazing jobs, this being one of them. Eventually I want my own business designing and selling aftermarket performance products. If some one wants something made, take the part, make it better, and produce it.


lol i wish i raced airplanes. that was just something i said one time when my buddys and i were drinking. some guy came up to me and asked if i wanted to race his buddys vette, and out of nowhere i said "I race street bikes and airplanes" it was a good laugh lol:D. so from then on its kinda been my moto

kb58
03-16-2009, 02:53 PM
Specs to be:
Weight = Estimated 90-95kg, dressed, dry.
A complete Hayabusa (granted, with gearbox) is about 200lbs. Adding a larger crank and head... eh, maybe.

Sounds optimistic because the Hartley V8 that uses Hayabusa parts weighs the same and is much smaller displacement. Do 'Busa heads weigh the same as K20 heads?

Engineering an engine like this cost $$$$$$, doesn't it? Designing it is one thing, engineering it is another. Cooling, lubrication, and vibration design concerns are a really big deal.

zerotraction
03-16-2009, 04:22 PM
A complete Hayabusa (granted, with gearbox) is about 200lbs. Adding a larger crank and head... eh, maybe.

Sounds optimistic because the Hartley V8 that uses Hayabusa parts weighs the same and is much smaller displacement. Do 'Busa heads weigh the same as K20 heads?

Engineering an engine like this cost $$$$$$, doesn't it? Designing it is one thing, engineering it is another. Cooling, lubrication, and vibration design concerns seems seem like a really big deal.

Research and development is going to be insane. I can only imagine how much billet they are going to have to order. I would expect something like this to cost 20-30k to develop one working motor, minimum.
Although slocivic does seem to have alot of ins, so maybe that figure will be discounted some.

jrobson
03-16-2009, 11:32 PM
A complete Hayabusa (granted, with gearbox) is about 200lbs. Adding a larger crank and head... eh, maybe.

Sounds optimistic because the Hartley V8 that uses Hayabusa parts weighs the same and is much smaller displacement. Do 'Busa heads weigh the same as K20 heads?

It's an estimate, I'm not going to kill myself if it comes out to 110kg. :D


Engineering an engine like this cost $$$$$$, doesn't it? Designing it is one thing, engineering it is another.

EDIT: Actually, thats incorrect, designing it properly is the hard part, you spend at least 50 times longer doing the design than the actual machining will take...

Slociviccoupe
03-17-2009, 12:45 PM
Busa Heads and cylinders are much smaller than the k and f series.
And yes research and development takes way longer than the actual production. Lots of late nights and full weekends. Meanwhile working a full time job and going to school. Tons of notes taken from the internet and measuring various honda engines that are in the living room torn apart, numerous cad drawings saved. Different parts designed then redesigned. Many trips to machine shops asking if they are willing to help out, tons of dissapointment. Constantly checking honda or local shops for used parts, hoping for donations so that you can afford the billet blanks for machining. Numerous nights spent in confusion till you pass out leaning on the keyboard. Waking up in the middle of the night, drawing out what5 you just thought of, working all through the night and hating life at work the next day.
Im sure others will contest to this, it becomes a part of your life. And the fact that others appreciate what you are trying to do makes it worth it. And if you fail then you have a really cool coffee table.
Thanks to all those out there that are supportive and have knowledgeable info to share. It is appreciated.

jrobson
03-17-2009, 01:54 PM
Full type S head around 23kg, a little on the heavy side... CRV head is a little lighter, but not by much, needs a diet.

Slociviccoupe
03-17-2009, 02:09 PM
be a little carefull with the crv head. have you noticed the divider between the ports has a hole in it. This may be for economy, emissions, or torque. I do not know the reason for this. A fully ported crv head barely flows what a k20a head flows. but what is good about your design is the ability to bolt on a k20a head if need be eventually. Also with all k series heads is cam oiling. It sucks. Normally the number 2 cam tower supplies oil to the cams which are hollow. The oil passage in the cam tower is about the diameter of a toothpick, .0625"
There is about 3 psi of oil pressure on the cam journals during engine opperation. The fix is to drill out the center bolt hole on the outside of the number 5 cam tower. Then intersect that hole with a .125" diameter hole vertical in the cam tower. Where the cam tower is split. Then mill a .125" passage from the drilled hole to the cam journals. Unfortunately this will pass through the cam tower bolt hole. This poses a problem. Oil will now enter the rocker shaft through this hole and engage vtec. To fix this you will need to install a shrink fit plug in the rocker shaft. The plug will need to be inbetween the last rocker and the bolt for the last cam tower. This will have to be done on both rocker shafts. The hole at the end of the cam tower will be tapped for .125" npt. a fitting will be installed, a braided line will now feed the cam tower externally from the oil source. providing full oil pressure to the cam towers. This is a roadrace modification done to honda challenge engines.
I did this to my own k series engine when I was building it.

jrobson
03-17-2009, 02:38 PM
No I did not notice the hole, do you have a picture, I can't find anything.

Slociviccoupe
03-17-2009, 03:04 PM
hmmmm, maybe it might be another k24 head other than the crv head. It will be in the divider in the port between the 2 intake valves in the intake port.

jrobson
03-17-2009, 03:21 PM
I think it's the element head you are thinking off.
http://www.irekevin.com/forumn/crv_V_types_V_tsx.jpg

Slociviccoupe
03-17-2009, 03:22 PM
Dunno what your planning on for valvetrain, Im going aftermarket Eibach with titanium retainers.
But here is an oem combo good to 9k rpm on mild cams.

Dished retainer - 14765-PRB-A01
Yellow outer spring - 14761-PCX-003
Red inner spring - 14752-PRB-A01

Slociviccoupe
03-17-2009, 03:24 PM
actually might be the k20a3 headfrom the ep3 civic hatch. or the accord head. I know its not the tsx. Tsx and new civic SI head are almost identical.

Slociviccoupe
03-17-2009, 05:10 PM
just figured out how you are cutting engine weight. Nickasil bores. I just picked up a sleeved engine block and omg was it freaking heavy. So Im ditching the design with dart wet t sleeves and going in favor of nickasil bores. Most if not every porsche engine has nickasil cylinder bores. Wiseco makes pistons for motorcycle and 2 stroke engines with nickasil bores. There is no different expansion rates between the sleeve and the block like that with the use of steel sleeves. There are so many benefits of nickasil. and the best part is reduced engine weight.

K'arsrKool
03-17-2009, 10:43 PM
Well, I think you guys are off to a good start. I was just reading through the thread and thinking about some things. I'm sure you've heard of the VAG W8 and W12 engines, and that they are essentially two VR6 blocks combined with one common crankshaft. With all the machining you guys plan on doing, and especially with a 90dg layout,(which I'm not even sure would fit in the S-2000) would it be possible to combine two blocks in the same fashion as the VAG model, have you touched this already? Anyhow, I honestly think that your going to have problems with the width in the S. I think measuring up the chassis FIRSTwould've been the way to go. Especially since your building a "bolt in motor". Using the stock motor mounts is a definate recipe for disaster.:down: I think with all of the computer modeling programs out there it is definatly possible to get close to a smooth, reliable motor, but as for "Honda" reliability:wow:. Take a look at what the MotoCyz team went through. Started with a decent design in his garage, but needed a couple million dollars just to make a bike that could complete a couple of laps before it broke. I hope you guys can get some real backing. The secret to making a motor from scratch is not a CAD file, it's gonna take all that blood, sweat, and tears you speak of, and a whole S@*TLOAD of money. :cry:

jrobson
03-18-2009, 12:03 AM
It's described as two blocks combined but technically it is a completely different block design, it could be possible to cust 2 honda blocks apart and machine it down to use as cylinders but the cylinders are cheap to make, the block itself is expensive and there is no way around that.

You must not confuse cost of a one off(in my case) vs cost of a resell product, if you make something for yourself you have many short cuts that you can take and live with, if you want to resell a product then you have to make customers happy... If one is to make say 10 engines it would be cheaper to have a mould made and casting the blocks than to machine them from blanks...

kb58
03-18-2009, 05:24 AM
You must not confuse cost of a one off(in my case) vs cost of a resell product, if you make something for yourself you have many short cuts that you can take and live with, if you want to resell a product then you have to make customers happy...
I don't feel that gets you off the hook for reliability at all. Sure, not designing for production is one thing, but you presumably still want something capable of lasting 5000 miles, no? If so, you're right back to spending potentially millions and thousands of hours to deal with harmonics, lubrication, and cooling issues. Our company spent millions to develop an engine only to give up because harmonic-related issues eating up the budget. Do you have the instrumentation to properly deal with harmonics? Reliability doesn't have anything to do with the size of the production run.

Don't get me wrong, I'm impressed that you're taking this on, but to be honest I suspect you're underestimating the magnitude of the issues. A positive mental attitude only gets you so far; after that it's just you against physics... best of luck.

jrobson
03-18-2009, 05:32 AM
I don't feel that gets you off the hook for reliability at all. Sure, not designing for production is one thing, but you presumably still want something capable of lasting 5000 miles, no? If so, you're right back to spending potentially millions and thousands of hours to deal with harmonics, lubrication, and cooling issues. Our company spent millions to develop an XXX engine and gave up due to harmonics-related issues eating up the budget. And we didn't need that many engines, but that doesn't matter when it has to be high reliability.

Don't get me wrong, I'm impressed that you're taking this on, but to be honest I suspect you're underestimating the magnitude of the issues. A positive mental attitude only gets you so far; after that it's just you against physics... best of luck.
I wasn't referring to reliability at all, I mean little things, like oil passages and drain backs, I can use manifolds for instance, if you want to sell an engine it's best to integrate it all in the block, that means extra weight, extra cost. Describe your company's money pit XXX engine please.

K'arsrKool
03-18-2009, 11:13 AM
I understand that the W8 -W12 is a different block design as a whole but it essentially uses a block design they know works. So using two Honda blocks would be using Hondas well thought out design and using it to your advantage. I realize it may be more expensive at first but you know it works. Maybe make a master mould after that prototype.
And have you ever thought about placing two nose to tail? I believe you had said you were building a Fiat, but obviously custom framed, so placing such a beast shouldn't be too hard:rolleyes:. And I think that design would probably fit in an S with some love. Or what about an I6? Would def be a cheaper block and head to machine. lighter weight too. Just some thoughts...

Slociviccoupe
03-18-2009, 12:36 PM
believe it or not its not that hard to design. You have constraints that are set by the cylinder head. basically both our engines share the same 94mm bore spacing. In my design I am using the same deck height that was designed into the f20c engine from honda, 223.9mm or 8.814". I am using aftermarket connecting rods that are for the f20c engine with the exception of the b series big end dimensions. Pistons will be wiseco pistons for the f20c application. Bearings will be oem honda so yes there will be oem reliability. All other components that are needed like timing gears, timing chain, guides, and tensioner will all be oem honda. All that is left to engineer is the block. By means of a block there isn't much to it. Its a case that is rigid enough to hold the crankshaft and attach the cylinders. For oiling a central oil galley down the middle with passages drilled for the main bearings. The only real engineering in my design is narrowing the main journal diameter and rod width to make room for 2 rods per journal and still have enough room for counterweights. Everything else is just measure off the existing engine and implement on my design.

jrobson
03-18-2009, 12:58 PM
The cylinders are not complicated to do, especially when they are short, the shorter they are the stiffer they are already and the less stiff they need to be, it is all you can keep from a honda if you were to cut up two blocks and I'm not so sure you will be able to bolt it to the crank case either, which you still have to machine, making a flat 8 with 2 honda blocks is not possible. A straight 6 have a longer crank, certainly not for a racing motor, then rather look at a V12! Also what heads do you use?
The car was front wheeled drive, it's not difficult at all to place a V8 in the frame and go rwd, estimated width here is less than 700mm.

Everything ties in to the goals set out, which decided the design, "light weight, high power output", to get that you need a small high revving engine, the shorter the stroke, the shorter the cylinders and the smaller the crank case, this then lowers the weight, and that goes for the crank and rods as well, the crank also becomes stiffer and easier to get right. The shorter stroke forces higher R/S ratio's so you get less side thrust on the pistons, this allows shorter skirt lighter weight pistons to be used, but the problem is you struggle to get good compression unless you go with a piston with a lot of volume on the top, which increases the weight again, so a turbo motor now makes sense. Of course you use what is available stock, almost all accessories are shelf parts, why would anyone want to redo the small complex parts that work perfectly well? This is not always possible though and certain things are forced, for instance engine bearings, those type of bits can not be custom.

If it doesn't last very long it's not the end of the world, that can be addressed, better to have tried and failed than not to have tried at all! If you sit around until you have the perfect engine on your computer you will never get started, so at some stage you need to stop the "what if" and start putting things into practise to see "what is". :up:

Edit: The short stroke is also a lot smoother, so you have less problems with engine mountings ripping... Ever done any work on some big hp rotary motors?

Slociviccoupe
03-18-2009, 01:00 PM
Im working with a machinist that has his own billet cases, cylinders, and cylinder heads for suzuki, yamaha, and honda drag bikes. He is very knowledgable and his designs work. He feels there should be no problem getting the design to work. And he Is willing to help design and do the machining just to see it work. Meanwhile while I am working on the v8 design he is measuring out both my k and f series and going to create a billet block for either engine and turn it into a top alcohol drag bike engine. I don't see a problem designing the crankshaft as long as it is ballanced. Including the weight of the pistons, connecting rods, rings, and wrist pin. The main journal diameter and width is already engineered from honda in the acura nsx. So measuring the main caps of the c32a determines my main cap dimensions. Same with the rod journal. Existing engineering from honda in the b series engines. Im using the best of what honda has to offer and putting it all into one engine. Basically the way honda does, takes the parts and designs from other makes and models and implementing them into something new. Saving cost from having to produce new parts.

Slociviccoupe
03-18-2009, 01:07 PM
exactly, I am to that point where by the next 6 months i will have a crank case and a pair of cylinders of my design in my living room amongst the other honda engines. before i go spend the money on the steel crank I am machining one from aluminum to place in the engine to make sure everything fits like it is supposed to. My biggest task right now is getting the spacing at the rear of the engine correct for the gear drive off the crank to turn the rear timing chain. The next task is shortening a timing chain. then how to shorten the timing chain guides for that cylinder bank.

jrobson
03-18-2009, 01:20 PM
Just a tip, wood is cheaper and works fine for rapid proto stuff ;)
Do you have pricing yet on 4340 bar?

Slociviccoupe
03-18-2009, 01:30 PM
getting pricing hopefully tomorrow. sent out an email today to the metal supplier. Ive actually made a mockup out of high density blue foam. Using a hot wire to cut it. Unfortunately I can't put wood or any other material in the cnc mill. It would be a complete mess. It 2 weeks just to clean aluminum chips out so we could machine some titanuim, monell, and platnum for a customer. We had to clean out the machine, put plastic to catch the different types of metal to return to the customer with their parts. I figured a log of 4340 about 22" long 6" diameter. also priced out 6061 t6 and 7075. Hopefully I will recieve an email tomorrow with pricing.

jrobson
03-18-2009, 01:42 PM
Cool, just curious but why not run an intermediate shaft between the cylinders to drive the valvetrain?
Let me know how much, maybe I have a better option for you.

Slociviccoupe
03-18-2009, 01:52 PM
ford did exactly that on the 4.0 v6 in the explorer. They turned one cylinder head around and drove it from a jackshaft from the front of the engine. I have not seen this personally. And I feel the idler gear against the crankshaft is more compact and less parts. In my design I am taking the gear that drives the cams on the f20c. Using the oem part which rotates on a bolt that is threaded into the head. Will be using and modifying this oem part to mesh with a gear that is on the crank. Then the lower timing chain gear will be fixed to the idler gear. So with the exception of modifying oem parts all i have to do is make a pair of shorter timing chain guides, and shorten the timing chain.

Slociviccoupe
03-18-2009, 02:30 PM
http://www.k20a.org/forum/showthread.php?t=10028&highlight=head
think this shows the intake port of k24 heads, not tsx.

zerotraction
03-20-2009, 08:02 PM
Going for a turbo setup? Would be nice.

JDMEG6
03-21-2009, 02:29 AM
Slociviccoupe maybe I missed it but is this going in an S2k:wow:

jrobson
03-21-2009, 03:17 AM
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c60/jrobson_1/Both.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c60/jrobson_1/CRV-Port.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c60/jrobson_1/Type-S.jpg

The CRV certainly has the most potential for outright power, it's just missing the 3 rocker VTEC system, the inlet ports at the flange is smaller by about 70mm2 than the Type-S.

CSA:
CRV: 33.5mmx51mm - 1467.663mm2
Type-S: 34mm x 52mm - 1538.570mm2

Throat CSA:
CRV: 1480.46mm2
Type-S: I'll let you know if I take the valves out.

The CRV water ports are also better for a V8 project, the Type-S heads have the inlet water ports at the front and back side(in a V8) while the CRV heads would have them by the inlet manifolds in the center of the V.

EDIT:Yeah CR is difficult to get high enough for NA so going turbo, NA would have been nice.

signalpuke
03-21-2009, 03:52 AM
Slociviccoupe maybe I missed it but is this going in an S2k:wow:

Yes, and if it works out I want one.

CJM
03-21-2009, 05:14 AM
I just read this whole thread and I must say I am impressed. Taking on the task of designing and building a V8 is incredible and I commend you both for doing so. I cant justify doing it though other then the fact of being able to say "I made my own v8". Im not hating, just fiscally, I cant justify it. I agree with KB, I think you guys may run into issues down the road a bit. Best of luck still.

Putting the 84mm stroke from the f20c in a k24 block is not a desirable combination, either is the 86mm stroke from the k20. Piston speeds are too low. Im sure an F1 engineer could make a screamer that would work, but I don't know of any.


http://k20a.org/forum/showthread.php?t=46404

I take it you have not seen that. I now own it and cant wait to drive it. I think it is going to work quite well... I hope it does. It was not designed by an F1 engineer either, Ron of IPS came up with it.

-Colin

Slociviccoupe
03-21-2009, 10:17 AM
Yes my engine is to be put into a s2k chassis. Went out to my car the other night with a cardboard template. Put a hole in the center of the mains and placed on the crank bolt. Template was a full size drawing of block, cylinders, heads and valve covers. Unfortunately the valve covers hit the shock towers. They hit by only an inch. So once I get my front clip to mess with Im going to see what can be done to the shock towers To get the clearance needed. May have to Make billet valve covers in combination with notching the shock towers.
Yes I agree there is really no point to this project other than self gratification. But there is always the chance that when finished there are certainly people out there that will want one. The only reason for taking on this design project is I got bored building honda 4 cylinders. Sure there are millions of combinations that can be built, but in the end you are buying parts that have been engineered by some one else and putting them together. Honda's are like lego's. Building different engine combinations are just like changing the color of the lego.
The thought of going turbo might produce rediculous horsepower. Just look at the affect boost has on a typical honda 4 cylinder. In my design with the nickasil cylinders running boost might not be the best. Would have to implement a press in steel liner. But Porsche has been using nickasil bores for a long time.
I have changed the bore diameter in my design. Im going 84mm stroke 88mm bore. There are 88mm bore pistons available from wiseco as stock shelf items. So no custom pistons have to be made. So my engine is around 4.0 liters. Even the guys over at endyn are interested and have given me a lot of information and help.
In the end this is going to be my senior design project for college. So even if there is no market or point for creating a honda based v8. At least Ill graduate college and already have my senior project finished.
By the way, 4340 hot rolled annealed commercial quality 6" dia. X 22" long
442.54 $. This is just the cost of the billet log going to be used for the crank. Not including the 900$ for grinding, ballancing, polishing, cryo, and nitriding.
not using 7075 T651 anymore but here is the price for one cylinder bank in this material. 6" tall X 8" wide X 18-1/2" long. 773.89$
I will be using 6061 T6. It is cheaper and will be stiff enough for what I am trying to do.
I do need the help of someone. I really need a drawing of the headgasket, deck surface, or cylinder head. Endyn has them but they are propritary of honda and they can't release them.

Slociviccoupe
03-21-2009, 10:24 AM
Also, anyone on k20a able to get the lower manifold from jenvy/hayward. Minus the individual throttles. I will need it for the f20c head. This seems to be the most economical way to create the intake manifold. Thought of the hypertune head flange and billet runners but 130.00$ a runner not including the head flange is a little too much to justify on the first intake manifold. The best part of the engine displacing 4.0 liters is the intake plenum should be roughly 2.0 liters in displacement. Just don't know what throttle body size should be yet.

zerotraction
03-21-2009, 11:02 AM
http://www.yellowbullet.com/forum/showthread.php?p=1507784
More reading for you guys, this time it's about turbo setups and wastegate priority.
Be sure to take a look at the manifold setups halfway down the page with the CART engine and the one before it, those are great V8 manifolds.

Slociviccoupe
03-21-2009, 11:47 AM
I hope to see manifolds like that when i send the front clip with finished engine off to john at hytech. He will be designing, fitting and making the headers for me. Intake manifold will be a cast jenvy / hayward lower manifold with velocity stacks bolted to the manifold omiting the individual throttle bodies. The velocity stacks will be welded to the plenum. Throttle body will be in front of plenum in the center like that of the ls1.

jrobson
03-21-2009, 12:26 PM
$180 for a 4x22 bar. Why don't you just measure the head you have for the measurements?

Slociviccoupe
03-21-2009, 12:56 PM
don't have the head yet. Actually trading my k swap for a f20c head and trany next weekend. I had a full f20c swap about a year ago got rid of it and was goin k. for some reason all i kept was the headgasket. I have a trashed Block that Im taking measurements from. Im just being lazy and hoping for a cad file of the headgasket. To reduce weight making the cylinders the same profile of the head gasket. There should be enough support seing that the head doesn't contact the entire deck surface in oem fasion. It only contacts the head in the shape of the headgasket.

Slociviccoupe
03-21-2009, 01:15 PM
your lucky in sense that you can get your short 60mm stroke from a 4" bar. Because of my 84mm stroke i have to have a 6" diameter to start from.
Im going to have the crank roughed out, heat treated, ground, cryoed, nitrided, then finished ground, ballanced and polished.

jrobson
03-21-2009, 02:03 PM
If you are not dead set on 4340 let me know, I'll pm you the details of an alternative steel to use.

zerotraction
03-21-2009, 05:52 PM
I hope to see manifolds like that when i send the front clip with finished engine off to john at hytech. He will be designing, fitting and making the headers for me. Intake manifold will be a cast jenvy / hayward lower manifold with velocity stacks bolted to the manifold omiting the individual throttle bodies. The velocity stacks will be welded to the plenum. Throttle body will be in front of plenum in the center like that of the ls1.
Hytech :up:

Slociviccoupe
03-21-2009, 08:47 PM
yes hytech for the win, john is helping me with guidelines and products that are offered for the s2k. Eventually I will be running their cams, a set of headers made by them , an intake plenum made by endyn and headwork also done by endyn.

Slociviccoupe
03-21-2009, 09:11 PM
not dead set on 4340, but every crankshaft i know is made from it, and I once hung my life from a prop on an airplane with a crankshaft made from 4340.
What is the alternative? I know 4140 is also used but mainly in connecting rods not crankshafts. Think you mentioned EN04B? or something like that. And some companies make their main caps out of 8620 steel. I was just going with what works from other manufacturers.

Slociviccoupe
03-22-2009, 07:50 AM
http://www.marinecrankshaftinc.com/import.htm

Recomended to me from John Grudynski From Hytech exhaust.

Slociviccoupe
03-22-2009, 12:40 PM
Side clearance between counterweights and main caps? What is a good number to shoot for?

kb58
03-23-2009, 08:29 AM
I'm not sure asking for engine design guidance on an internet forum is the best source of hard data. I'm sure some here know what they're talking about, but that leaves a lot of noise that can be mistaken for fact.

K'arsrKool
03-23-2009, 10:10 AM
Alright man, glad to see you actually fit it in the chassis your using. I had a bad feeling a 90 wouldn't fit, the S is long and narrow. And an inch on either side is a lot, I think so anyway. Especially when you consider that it was mocked up with no headers I think thats your major problem right now, is getting it to fit in there. Can you change the degree of the V? I think thats your best bet. I wouldn't want to start cutting into a chassis that was designed for the power of a 4. I know it can take more but I wouldn't wanna spend all that time on the motor and end up with a chassis thats a wet noodle ya know. You can cage the front, but I still wouldn't want to cut the strut towers, thats a very integral part of any car, especially on the monster your making. And the smaller V would leave you room for some nice sized snails heh?

Slociviccoupe
03-23-2009, 02:40 PM
problem with fitment solved with billet low profile valve covers. Have to remove the booster and convert to manual brakes as the drivers side valve cover will hit the booster. I actually like the feel of manual brakes so this is no problem.
Last night was a long night, up all night re-drawing everything that I lost the past week. Found the virus that made me loose the data. Added some more memory to my pc. So auto CAD is a bit faster now and Im not freezing up or loosing data anymore. Having multiple cad programs, and many drawings with layers and tool paths takes up a lot of space.
The other member and I on this forum are not asking how to build an engine, just sharing ideas with each other and other members.

Slociviccoupe
03-23-2009, 03:08 PM
header fitment will not be a problem. There is enough room between the frame rails and the engine. Changing the v angle is an option but will not be an even fire engine design. Also the cam timing would be off, so more custom parts would have to be made.
Some other bad news is the 30-1052 for the s2k only has 5 coil outputs 4 of which are already designated to the 4 coils in use. same as the aem ems for the rsx. So I may have to run the universal ems and make a conversion harness.

vinuneuro
03-24-2009, 08:21 AM
kb58 is right. You guys are confusing the processes of designing and engineering. A project like this requires hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars. And even harder to come by for an enthusiast is the knowledge and experience. Engineers focus entire careers on singular components or aspects of an engine.

jrobson
03-24-2009, 10:52 AM
kb58 is right. You guys are confusing the processes of designing and engineering.
No I'm not.

A project like this requires hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars.
No it doesn't.
And even harder to come by for an enthusiast is the knowledge and experience. Engineers focus entire careers on singular components or aspects of an engine.
No they don't.

I prefer to discuss technical issues and don't want to get baited into financial discussions at all, but if you want to back up your estimation of hundreds of thousands to millions then please explain where the money goes, since you guys know, can you break it down so we can see where all the money is going?

kb58
03-24-2009, 11:42 AM
And I won't get baited into debating this either. Let's see how many thousands of miles the engine lasts and the design will speak for itself.

jrobson
03-24-2009, 11:50 AM
I'm still curious where all the money goes? Is it like the bailout money, and nobody knows? :silly:

Slociviccoupe
03-24-2009, 01:46 PM
who cares how much it costs. I may end up with a 20 thousand dollar coffee table. Just the fact Im going to school to be an engineer. This is my senior design project. An engine is nothing special. We are simply taking measurements from other various engines and combining them into one design. A crankshaft is not hard to design. A crank case does nothing but house the crank and provide a surface to mount the cylinders to. Everything else will be as much oem honda that it can be. Pre engineered parts.
This thread is not for criticism or talk about why we are doing this. this thread is for the other member and I to discuss ideas and share with the public. We could end this now, go on our ways. Each create our own different designs and you know nothing more about it. This thread was also intended to see the demand for such an engine if it were to go into production.
An engine is nothing special, just various moving parts and clearances. they all do the same thing suck, squish, bang, blow.
Do you think every honda engine started out as a new design... no honda engineers used what they already have engineered and designed and placed the parts all over the honda line. Thats why we are able to convert our cars to disk brakes, do engine swaps in cars that never had the engines we are swaping. I just got bored with conventional honda engines and swaps. And want to produce what honda hasn't yet. A v8 with true vtec that we all love. I won't let this thread turn into a honda tech thread where people start comenting off topic.

Slociviccoupe
03-24-2009, 02:07 PM
kb58, how do you figure the engine design will not work. The crankshaft is nothing but the stock design with the rod journals widened and the diameter reduced to b series journal dimensions. this was done to narrow the big end of the rod to b series width so that 2 rods could be fit on one journal. The main journals were reduced in width to nsx size main journals. Since the width of the bearing decreased honda made the main journal almost 3" in diameter. This design works very well in the nsx which is a 90 degree v6 that is capable of high hp and high rpm. Will be using all oem honda bearings. so as long as the clearances are there for rods and mains there should be oem reliability. The cylinders follow the profile of the headgasket. They bolt onto the block like that of a motorcycle. Proven design. The cylinders will be nickasil plated, porsche does this as well as every sportbike out on the road today. The pistons are wiseco units that are existing piston designs for the f20c. The rods will be made by crower or manley with stock f20c length and pin dimensions, with the exception of a b series big end dimension. Again both proven designs from these companies. I am not engineering the pistons or rods. The cylinder heads are the same cylinder heads that honda bolts onto their flagship sportscar the s2000. Which carries a factory warranty and lasts thousands of miles. My design keeps the same short stroke, long rod of the f20c so no engineering in rod angles, piston speeds, ect. The crank case is nothing but a peice to house the crank and be structural enough to bolt the cylinders to. The cylinders and crank case will be machined out of 6061 t6 aluminum, which is a lot stronger than the cast honda block. The engine will be entirely assembled with dowel pins. more than honda does in their factory engines.
I do not see where there is such design failures and unreliability that you speak of. There is no difference in what we are doing than putting aftermarket pistons, rods, and crank in an aftermarket block. Then bolting on a factory cylinder head with more aftermarket pre engineered parts.

jdm monkey
03-24-2009, 02:42 PM
i would be intersted in purchasing the bottom end as a kit and build it myself. What ecm are you going to use for this engine?

Slociviccoupe
03-24-2009, 02:59 PM
keep in mind there has been nothing machined as of yet. But that is the point of this. is to provide a customer with the bottom end. being the crank case, cylinders, rods, and modified timing components. Then a list of the parts needed to finish the rest of the engine. Either good used parts or new oem honda parts.
The only thing right now is getting costs down. The price of steel is out the roof, Aluminum plate in the dimensions needed is around 400.00$ a piece. And there is 2 of everything. A set of crower rods is around 600.00$ a set and again you would need 2 sets. Wiseco pistons are 475.00$ a set. 2 sets needed. Have to run aftermarket pistons because of nickasil bores. Main bearings are from the nsx, rod bearings are from the b18c5. Just need 8 sets. Headgasket is cometic, again 2 needed. And the intake manifold is getting pricy. The hayward lower manifold is 375.00$ each and need 2. The bolt on velocity stacks are 40.00$ each and will need 8. Thats not including the custom plenum from endyn energy dynamics and billet 90mm throttle body.
I will be planning on running the aem ems. Have one on my 2000 civic and love it. Will be waiting for their second generation to come out. Speaking with engineers to get a custom ecu made with the s2000 ecm connector but be able to support 8 coils instead of the 5 coil outputs offered on the 30-1052 for the s2000 chassis.

K'arsrKool
03-24-2009, 03:58 PM
I'm still curious where all the money goes? Is it like the bailout money, and nobody knows? :silly:

HAHAHAHA:hammer: hundreds of millions of dollars? HAHAHAHAHA

zerotraction
03-24-2009, 05:04 PM
I'm not sure asking for engine design guidance on an internet forum is the best source of hard data. I'm sure some here know what they're talking about, but that leaves a lot of noise that can be mistaken for fact.

Every post I see from you is criticizing someone else about something you disagree with. It's not working out well, if you were wondering.

Im pretty sure these guys know their first iteration is not going to work. If there's any advice I can give these guys its don't set dates or hopes. Just build it as fast as you can when you can and fix whatever is wrong with it when you finish and test it. Having expectations is going to kill you, just make it work first guys.

Slociviccoupe
03-24-2009, 06:31 PM
Im not sure but this guy kb85 is on other forums. I think he built a mid engine mini cooper. All tube frame. If its the same guy. If so Awesome fabricator. But shouldn't be stating it takes millions of dollars. John Hartley from www.h1v8.com built his first engine for 50k is what he emailed me.

kb58
03-24-2009, 06:36 PM
Every post I see from you is criticizing someone else about something you disagree with. It's not working out well, if you were wondering.
I'm flattered that you've examined all 750 of my posts...

There's a big difference between great fabrication skills and great engineering. Guess I'll change my comments to "yo, mad propz, that's siiiick".

Slociviccoupe
03-24-2009, 06:57 PM
Id like to know what you think is not going to work? Im not meaning this sarcastically. Im asking this question from an outsiders standpoint. Because I have the ideas in my head and the various honda engines in my living room torn apart for measurement. But I might be overlooking something. what do you think the failure points to be.

zerotraction
03-24-2009, 07:15 PM
I'm flattered that you've examined all 750 of my posts...

There's a big difference between great fabrication skills and great engineering. Guess I'll change my comments to "yo, mad propz, that's siiiick".

Ok bro. Every post I see your name I know what to expect, I just call 'em how I see 'em :rolleyes:. I guarantee Im not the only person who feels this way either.

I bet you got a lot flak from people telling you that building a mid engined car is impractical, too expensive, you're not going to work, etc etc and now look. You have a book and car. Tada!
Granted, these guys may not like sound like they understand the scope of the project but that does not place it out of their reach at all homie. Its probably better that way so they don't give up due to the stress this kind of project entails.
You can also leave constructive criticism as opposed to idea bashing and telling someone their project is going to cost a million (lol?still not sure if that was serious) dollars. I managed to post without sounding like a total dickbag, you can too.

You also must not know many machinists... alot of problems with engineers is they lack real world experience, meaning their ideas look great on paper but proceed to suck in practice. In fact, the machinists I know are better engineers than the engineers I know simply because their approach is more practical. Now this guy is going to engi school as well... good combo imo.

And yeah, the last place you should be looking for help and ideas is the internet...


Its only the greatest information resource ever created in recorded history. If thats your point of view, why are you even on these forums?

Slociviccoupe
03-24-2009, 07:41 PM
We, the other member and I that are designing a v8. Can't go and spout out all our ideas. And can't go and post all of our drawings with full dimensions. That would be like sending dart cylinder heads our cad files and be like here you go. here is a free engine design.
I am only asking questions for certain things I run into as I go. Heck it took me almost a month drawing on posterboard full size with my slide ruler and dial calipers before I even turned on my computer and started drawing it out. Its taken me all week just to draw out the crankshaft in 2d in Auto Cad. And thats because of the time and research on finding out widths of rods, bearings, main caps, and main bearings. Also including side clearances, journal radius'. Now to make it 3d and make sure everything lines up and has desired clearances in the crank case. Im still working on the profile of the headgasket to use as the profile of the cylinder banks.

Slociviccoupe
03-26-2009, 02:20 PM
just got the price of my crank today, marine crankshaft specialties will be making the crank. I do not have to do any machining on the crank. 3K out the door ready to drop into an engine. That is 4340 aircraft grade steel, heat treated, cryoed, shot peened, nitrided, polished and ballanced.
Has b16 rod journals, nsx main journals, and the 94mm bore spacing of the s2000. Will be 84mm stroke. Counterweight design and shape will be taken care of by marine crankshaft specialties. As will all radius' on the mains and rod journals.
This company makes the crank for john hartley's busa v8.
Today is a good day.

signalpuke
03-27-2009, 02:52 AM
Very nice, looking forward to seeing some pics of it :)

CJM
03-27-2009, 05:46 AM
wow that crank sounds sick:up:

jrobson
03-27-2009, 08:23 AM
Im not sure but this guy kb85 is on other forums. I think he built a mid engine mini cooper. All tube frame. If its the same guy. If so Awesome fabricator. But shouldn't be stating it takes millions of dollars. John Hartley from www.h1v8.com built his first engine for 50k is what he emailed me.

They did that with a casting didn't they? It pushes up pricing a lot on development. Good stuff on the crank, there is a member on here or HT that has 4340 cranks made for $2000, but you would have to put the efford in of calculating it yourself and giving them the solid though... Extra $1000 for piece of mind... not that big of a deal, if I wasn't so cheap I would go for it too! :up:

Agree with whats been said, if it bolts together the goal is achieved, then we move along. I can start now, but I don't want to spend my own money, I have money put into a lot of other car parts, trying to sell those parts first to use that.

Agree with what slocivic says... what was posted earlier are old stuff that's long been revised, why post current stuff and specific details? Tradition? I actually don't know, I have no actual problem doing it if someone asks though (but you have to ask the right question to get the right answer), except that I don't want to hear how it will cost millions without explaining WHY it would cost millions, I learn nothing from that, I based my affordability estimates on actual figures not on a magazine article telling how BMW spends 2million dollars to develop a oil pan.

Slociviccoupe
03-27-2009, 03:25 PM
yes, the first engines were castings, porosity and rigidity forced them to go billet block. so from learning from others I am going billet from the start.
Well this weekend is a good weekend. Got rid of my k series and the vortech supercharged b16b that was in my coupe. Ended up with a full f20c swap for parts for the v8, and ended up with a f22c full swap with s2k rear subframe for my 2000 civic coupe. rwd project to go along with the v8 s2k.
So now I got more parts to measure and draw up. and now got a motor for my civic to make it rwd. woo hoo.

JDMEG6
03-27-2009, 06:37 PM
yes, the first engines were castings, porosity and rigidity forced them to go billet block. so from learning from others I am going billet from the start.
Well this weekend is a good weekend. Got rid of my k series and the vortech supercharged b16b that was in my coupe. Ended up with a full f20c swap for parts for the v8, and ended up with a f22c full swap with s2k rear subframe for my 2000 civic coupe. rwd project to go along with the v8 s2k.
So now I got more parts to measure and draw up. and now got a motor for my civic to make it rwd. woo hoo.

wow :wow::wow::D Fun fun good luck

jrobson
04-05-2009, 07:38 AM
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c60/jrobson_1/Cylinders-Step-1-sneakpeak.jpg
Shoudl finish this coming week.

chunky`
04-05-2009, 10:08 AM
I just saw this thread today. Amazing work. Both of you are ME by trade I presume?

Slociviccoupe
04-05-2009, 03:11 PM
Working on my ME degree. But been a certified cnc machinist for 3 years, honda mechanic for 2 years. And love the design and theory of engines and mechanical things.
Right now Im still sourcing parts to measure out and draw on auto CAD, Still don't have the money to go buy any billet blanks and start machining yet.

chunky`
04-05-2009, 05:02 PM
Working on my ME degree. But been a certified cnc machinist for 3 years, honda mechanic for 2 years. And love the design and theory of engines and mechanical things.
Right now Im still sourcing parts to measure out and draw on auto CAD, Still don't have the money to go buy any billet blanks and start machining yet.

Ahh, still a student. As am I, ME grad student. Wish I had the time & resources to do something like this. I barely have time to tinker around on my car anymore. Finding the time to do something simple like an oil change is a challenge during the week.

Best of luck to ya, and I'll be keeping an eye on this thread.

DSNR
04-05-2009, 06:19 PM
jesus. just read thru this thread. amazing work. gl with it. im sure youll turn some heads in high places with it

Slociviccoupe
04-06-2009, 12:39 PM
Yea time is hard to come by.

jrobson
04-08-2009, 03:00 AM
One down, one to go, post some pics up on Friday/Saturday.

jrobson
04-08-2009, 10:04 AM
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c60/jrobson_1/Cylinders_3.jpg
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c60/jrobson_1/Cylinders_2.jpg

Changed my mind on the oil return from the head, at 45degrees I'm not convinced the stock ports are great, so I'll plug them and put some new holes in the head to drain. tomorrow I'll finish the other one, then they need a cooling hole each, after that a hone and sleeves and they are 100% done.

Slociviccoupe
04-08-2009, 05:01 PM
one word.... envious. Im still measuring and drawing my design. id love to have billet parts in my hands to look at and make use of.
Looks good so far. You will definately have your engine finished well before i will. best of luck.

Scansel912
04-08-2009, 08:53 PM
As a current ME student and reading this, I am somewhat concerned with the issues of unwanted vibrations. The measurements you are taking are all from inline-4 motors and none from V-type cylinder motors. Seeing how the vibration characteristics are different with these types of motors, what have you done to address this, especially for a high rev V-type motor? Vibrations are just one issue I feel that could be a problem, along with cooling and oiling which is another issue.

I commend you for what you are doing, but I feel like measuring parts and not understanding completely why they are that measurement will lead to a premature/catastrophic failure of this project and I'd hate to see that happen. :up:

jrobson
04-09-2009, 01:59 AM
It will go slower from here though, a lot of other things to worry about, but I'll update the thread from time to time.

I'm assuming you are talking to slocivic regarding vibration and bearing issues?

I'd like to hear more about the oiling and cooling issues you are talking about?

Scansel912
04-09-2009, 07:46 AM
It will go slower from here though, a lot of other things to worry about, but I'll update the thread from time to time.

I'm assuming you are talking to slocivic regarding vibration and bearing issues?

I'd like to hear more about the oiling and cooling issues you are talking about?

I am talking to slocivic about the vibration concerns that was expressed on I believe page 3 of this thread as far as the differences between inline and v-type motors.

As far as the oiling, I have not seen or read what plans you guys have. Remember how many millions have been dumped into K20 motor research and they still have had oiling issues. I'd definitely want to touch base with someone how has lots of experience in this area.

jrobson
04-09-2009, 10:59 AM
Fastcar, if you can find a phone number for Honda Japan or a fax number, you could ask them to fax you the drawings, it's 50/50 though if they would bother.

Regarding oiling, I'm oiling from the nose of the crank and not through the block.

Slociviccoupe
04-09-2009, 06:43 PM
The difference on forces on the block are being adressed with full dowel pining of the lower crank case, 4 main bolts per main cap, and a split case design like that of the f and k series. I have been working with a guy who used to work for keith black, He knows his stuff and see's no problem with the design. Vibration and harmonics will be taken care of by implementing a fluidamper ballancer. Then the crank will be ballanced like a conventional 4 cylinder crank. Internally ballanced. All I have to do is provide the bob weight to marine crankshaft service and they will make the crank for me. They are designing the counterweight shape, and weight.
As for oiling I will be using a dry sump pump. Not sure how many stages yet. Will be oiling the mains from a central oil galley. The Oil feed to the head may be external. haven't got that far yet.
Kinda working on everything at one time. when get held back on one thing i start working on another. While waiting for a shortblock to get here for the timing chain guide measurements Im currently working on getting the parts for the intake manifold, along with collecting parts. So far have one cylinder head, a transmission, clutch and flywheel, harness, and timing components.

audioguru76
04-14-2009, 01:08 PM
dayum! I've always wondered if someone would do this someday... I can imagine it and sketch it, but not skilled in the ways of machining to do it. I kept getting hung up on how to drive the cams since one of the heads would need to be turned.

I would think that the intake manifold cost could be reduced by foregoing the ITB bases in favor of a CNC/laser/waterjet cut flange based on an IM gasket for the head. Cut 2 flanges, build the runners to match up with whatever plenum shape/volume you want. The velocity stacks could still be incorporated inside the manifold. Fuel injector bungs are easily sourced and added. Fuel rails are easily machined (for folks with the ability and equipment). Plus if space allowed, it may be possible to make the IM modular allowing for 'spacers' to be added or removed to tune the IM volume for different engine setups (or an intercooler integrated in the IM!).

this thread has got my mind in high gear!

Slociviccoupe
04-14-2009, 06:48 PM
using an existing cast aluminum manifold and velocity stacks saves time and cuts cost. i only have a 3 axis cnc mill to use. It would be nice to get the intake manifold that full race sells made by hypertune. Full billet flange with injector pockets, billet runners and velocity stacks. But the will not sell the manifold in peices without a plenum and throttle body flange. The cast manifold is the most economical way for me to go.
Found out this weekend with the foam mockup of my engine that it will not fit in the s2k chassis without major modification to the frame and shock towers. So im not giving up the design, but planning on a mid engine tube frame chassis resembling the rolex series daytona prototype. Mid engine with a transaxle.
Since hood clearance is no longer an issue, might just use itb's

Joe McCarthy
04-18-2009, 11:06 AM
Jrobson,
Are you not planning to run coolant around the cylinders? The photos you posted show this to be the case, I'm just curious.
Joe

jrobson
04-18-2009, 01:57 PM
Hi Joe

Yes it's an open deck design, it is quite shallow though.

Regards,
Jonathan.

hydrokracker
04-18-2009, 03:39 PM
I am very impressed with this build. I am currently in school receiving my degree in CAD, both 2d and 3d. So I can appreciate the design process.

If you guys need anyone to take a second or 3rd look at something, because after staring at a model for 8 hours it sometimes takes another set of eyes to notice an imperfection, let me know. I'll be glad to contribute.

As for the Intake manifold issue, have you completely ruled out making a traditional plenum style manifold?

Joe McCarthy
04-18-2009, 07:55 PM
Hi Jonathan,
So I'm assuming the cylinders will register in the crankcase, and you've provided a narrow band of coolant jacketing them. Are you going to use free-standing cylinders? If so I suggest you look at what Darton uses in their M.I.D. design, much more stability at the top where we're concerned with combustion sealing.
I just re-read your first post where you describe the engine's basic architecture, and have one concern you may want to think about. It's the issue of bearing journal overlap relative to crankshaft strength. Using 45mm main journals, 40mm rod journals, and a 60mm stroke you're only going to have 2.5mm of overlap, which is very likely to lead to an overly flexible crank. I can understand you wanting to use small diameter bearings to reduce parasitic friction, but this can be taken too far unless longevity is of no concern.
The crank I had made recently for a 1,517cc "K15" I'm building for Bonneville racing goes to the other end of the spectrum as far as journal overlap is concerned. I'm using 55mm mains, 48mm [24mm wide] rods, and a 60.96mm stroke, which gives me 21.02mm of overlap. This is one extremely stiff crankshaft! I'm using the 'PPA-2' cylinder head as well, but ported to flow 380 CFM @ .600" lift. It's going to rev to 13,000, so Del West Titanium valves and my own single roller non VTEC Aluminum rocker arms to keep the valvetrain mass manageable using steel valve springs.
On the issue material selection for the block and girdle I suggest you do a bit of research on elevated temperature strengths rather than the commonly published room temp. strengths. 7075 is actually weaker than 6061 at 300 degrees F. Here's a site I'm sure you'll find illuminating:
http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_technology/advanced_engine_materials.htm
Take care,
Joe

Joe McCarthy
04-19-2009, 03:08 AM
Hi Jonathan,
Here's the latest declassified alloy on the market, only available from Kaiser.
http://www.kaiseraluminum.com/wp-content/themes/kac/files/alloy-7068-rod-and-bar.pdf
As long as you're able to maintain reasonable oil temps 7068 is extremely strong, and would allow quite a bit thinner sections than with 6061. Naturally it's quite a bit more expensive, but the best of anything usually is.
7068 is what I'm using for my rocker arms.
Joe

jrobson
04-19-2009, 01:52 PM
Hi

With a 42mm crank and 38mm journals there is 10mm overlap, I'm not sure where you got 2.5mm from? EDIT: At 45/40 it is 12.5mm, typo?
I can't afford to make a block from 7068 :) But certainly the girdle will be along those spec's.

Thanks for the links, I'll have a read tomorrow properly.

Slociviccoupe
04-19-2009, 05:35 PM
im out of things to measure and draw for now, hardtop guy on s2ki.com screwed me out of a shortblock. sent him the money over a month ago and refuses to reply to emails. so 400.00 down the drain. Could have bought a nice piece of billet for that. Im still speaking to gear manufacturers for the rear cam drive gear. just at a standstill right now. And I hate it. :down:

jrobson
04-20-2009, 01:45 AM
It's a pity that site doesn't give the soak hours for 6061, because if that was 100 hours it can't be compared to 7075 at 1000 hours. Nevertheless 7075 is slightly stiffer as well. Why don't you just use 2024 for your rockers? Surely cheaper than 7068?

Joe McCarthy
04-20-2009, 03:40 PM
You're correct, it's a shame all of this information isn't readily available on the internet. Maybe they figure we'll just call them and ask, who knows? It's obviously data they've generated and have on hand.
On the rocker arms, and most things generally, the material cost is miniscule percentage-wise compared to the machining time. So if you're looking to make the lightest & strongest part it always makes sense to use the best material available. In my particular application valvetrain mass is critical because of the elevated rpm, and I'm going the cheap route on the valve springs rather than having Titanium springs specially wound. That would be really expensive! Illegal in many classes as well.
6061 has already been proven superior to a casting in one case we know of, and that same crankcase could easily be made substantially lighter and be just as strong by using 2024, or one of the 7000 series alloys as long as the temp is controlled. That bit gets difficult when you start shipping engines out to customers, you simply can't imagine the foolish things they're capable of.
Much easier when it's your own car and you can keep tabs on everything.

jrobson
04-21-2009, 08:07 AM
Yeah the data I have is that 6061 is certainly weaker than 7075 at temp, but there is a lot of conflicting data anyways and it's not interesting enough to take the time to find which is accurate. 2xxx is difficult to find here locally, 7075 and 6082 is very easy and cheap, I think Crane/Ferrea had some B series 7075 rockers, never heard of them breaking.

signalpuke
06-04-2009, 01:34 AM
Any updates on these builds gentlemen?

Slociviccoupe
06-04-2009, 04:28 AM
unfortunately no, lost my job recently, and the rwd f22 swap in the civic has my free time. I have acquired a f22 cylinder head and transmission. Still awaiting the shortblock from a member on s2ki.com. Will be continuing design and saving money for the materials and machining.

hmgfit
06-04-2009, 12:28 PM
Have anyone look into the design of the Honda NR750? which uses 8 valve per piston, kinda like a v8.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/18/Ovalpiston.jpg

http://www.diseno-art.com/encyclopedia/vehicles/road/bikes/1992_Honda_NR750.html

Slociviccoupe
06-04-2009, 05:21 PM
yes, ive seen that. they used to use that design in moto gp racing. Im sticking to the conventional v8 design using existing production cylinder heads from the s2000.

impreziv
06-11-2009, 04:40 PM
i just saw this thread for the first time. really good ideas here.

im not much of an engineer, but this has been a subject of my interest.

im curious how one would propose to reverse the flow of one of the cylinder heads? because you would obviously want the inner 2 ports to be intake, and outer 2 to be exhaust

is it as simple as swapping the the in/ex valvetrain components in one of the heads? and then having to reshape the in/ex ports to their new respective shapes in that head? or is the K-series head symmetical enough to simple flip it around, and figure out a way to mount the cam gears on the other side?

when i first read about the Busa V8, i assumed they did that, or made their own heads.

edit: i just noticed that the Busa V8 has one bank of cylinders flipped around, and an interesting method of driving the backwards cam set.

Slociviccoupe
06-14-2009, 12:06 AM
that is the same system i will be using in my design with the s2000 f20c cylinder heads. My design is greatly influenced from the h1 v8. with the only exception of using honda automotive cylinder heads and engine geometry. And my design is a 90 degree v8.

jrobson
06-14-2009, 05:56 AM
No time at the moment to make the mains cradle, but I'll try withing 2 months to have that finished. With the block around another 2 months after that, and the crank another 2 after that.

So hopefully all done by the end of the year, but we'll see, no pressure.

Slociviccoupe
06-14-2009, 01:48 PM
check out marine crankshaft specialties. they quoted me 3k out the door for my crank. vacuum degaused 4340 aircraft grade steel. thats your design out the door shipped to you. counterweight shape designed by them also. just provide the bob weight of your pistons and rods. Crank will have all the treatments also and be fully micropolished. Once I get 3k together ill be having my crank made.

jrobson
06-14-2009, 01:51 PM
I'd rather use 4140, 3K is too expensive for me though, no matter what or who makes it, since I'm so cheap... haha

Slociviccoupe
06-14-2009, 02:40 PM
being cheap is fine, hell i may only end up with a really cool coffee table when im done. The price of custom rods from crower is like being raped. 224$ a rod. then of course need 8 of them.and the only thing custom is the big end width and big end diameter. everything else like length and pin dimensions is stock size of a stock s2k rod. Then pistons. 475$ a set for wiseco pistons. and need 2 sets. None of that is including the cost of the billet for the cylinders, or the crank case. Your lucky to have those made already. Then the cost for sending the cylinders to melinium plating and having the nickasil process done.

jrobson
06-15-2009, 01:26 AM
I can probably make those rods for you cheaper, but they won't have the crower stamp on it. $224 isn't really that much if they aren't forged though.

jrobson
06-15-2009, 01:35 AM
Actually, thinking abou it again, why don't you use OE rods and just resize the big end? I'm assuming you just want it bigger and not wider or anything?

Slociviccoupe
06-15-2009, 01:52 AM
Im going the opposite route. going narrower than the f but not as narrow as the k. using b series big end rod dimensions and bearings. the diameter decreases also. so a stock s2k rod would not work. sucks, but thats what I get squeezing 2 rods on one journal. b series don't have rod bearing problems. so i should be safe.

jrobson
06-15-2009, 01:58 AM
Why can't you just machine down a stock F rod and bearing set? Instead of going with B series bearings.

Slociviccoupe
06-15-2009, 03:14 AM
wasn't sure on machining down bearings. Im not too sure on machining down a f series rod down that much. the rod bolts are larger on the f series than they are on the b.

jrobson
06-15-2009, 03:20 PM
Yes certainly bearings are easily machinable. It is done from time to time. I'm not familiar with your rods's current width or the final width you want, but it is certainly something to explore.

jrobson
06-30-2009, 10:49 AM
The alternative of course is to go for another model bearings in the same bore size but that are thinner...

Btw, just ordered the crank material, $55, not bad, will machine it soon and post pics.

Slociviccoupe
06-30-2009, 07:24 PM
very nice. look forward to seing the pics. I just got ahold of a yamaha mr-1 marine engine from a fx140 jet ski. very similar to the r1 engine in the sportbike. just no transmission, and water cooled exhaust. Very neat little engine. everything is soo small. 58mm stroke 74mm bore. I will be increasing the bore to 77mm and leaving the stroke stock. will take me from 998cc to 1080cc. The engine has full groove main bearings with 3 oiling holes in the case side bearing. Main bearings apear to be the same diameter as the rod bearings. just the mains are wider. 5 valves per cylinder. shim and bucket valve operation. no rockers ect. single valve spring.

jrobson
07-01-2009, 08:16 AM
Are you using this engine as your base now instead of the Honda?

Slociviccoupe
07-03-2009, 09:17 AM
nope, goin in a 12' shallow v boat. Im sticking to the f20/22c heads and geometry like stated before. but it is always interesting looking at other engines and seing how they work, and the engineering that keeps them going at 13k rpm.

ampmstation247
08-26-2009, 06:17 PM
bump for any updates

jrobson
08-27-2009, 11:45 AM
Not from me until October or so.

Kram
09-09-2009, 02:38 AM
Guys, I am not only extremely interested but also in a position to help - maybe.

I can have forged billet cranks, conrods etc made locally I would think at a considerable price reduction. Will have direct access to 5 axis gantry mills very shortly too (they are being built as I speak) beside a fair range of other CNC's and casting foundries.

Many of the components made by some of these companies are top US brand names at the retail counter.

No project too small.

jrobson
09-09-2009, 03:52 AM
Hi

I'm curious, whats a price(rough estimate if you want) on a crank? I've started but I'm getting a little busy now, so in case I worry about time.

Material: 4140, machined from 20" x 4" billet? heat treat to around 42rc, 10 hour plasma nitride. You can pm if you don't want to post public.

01_em2
09-09-2009, 07:16 AM
reading this thread made me realize 1. I dont know S**t 2. I shouldve gone to school for something lol and 3. I think im the least knowledgable person on this thread. You guys are pro's man if funding would have allowed it im sure id be a little more knowledgeable but ne ways back to topic mad props to you guys for doing this. When you get a Job as a Honda engineer hook it up with a parts Guy position lol jk or am I ?!

Texasnick
09-09-2009, 07:30 AM
Guys, I am not only extremely interested but also in a position to help - maybe.

I can have forged billet cranks, conrods etc made locally I would think at a considerable price reduction. Will have direct access to 5 axis gantry mills very shortly too (they are being built as I speak) beside a fair range of other CNC's and casting foundries.

Many of the components made by some of these companies are top US brand names at the retail counter.

No project too small.

:wow: Bump for the hope of getting this done and working.

JX jdm
11-24-2009, 11:23 AM
Well done.. both JRobson and slocivic!! It takes alot of ingenuity and loads of passion to tackle such a project IMO...:wow:

@JRobson... The first time u told me about the V8 Honda based motor u designing, i listened in disbelief.... I have just read through this entire thread, and after seeing some actual pics, i have that feeling all over again!!
I think it is time to come visit your factory and see for myself, and discuss my parts at the same time...:rolleyes: lol
BTW, do u still want that Fireblade ring gear i got for u??
Jx

Kram
11-24-2009, 04:31 PM
Hi

I'm curious, whats a price(rough estimate if you want) on a crank? I've started but I'm getting a little busy now, so in case I worry about time.

Material: 4140, machined from 20" x 4" billet? heat treat to around 42rc, 10 hour plasma nitride. You can pm if you don't want to post public.

Sorry been out of the loop for a bit.

If your interested I can find out for you?

Kram

jrobson
12-09-2009, 08:27 AM
Yes please, that would be appreciated.

Slociviccoupe
12-18-2009, 06:01 PM
finally getting back on track with my design. lots of research trying to find a set of helical cut gears that are a 1:1 ratio with eachother. trying to use as many oem parts then modify them if need be.
found that a b series second gear from the countershaft can be machined to be a heat press fit on the end of my crank for the rear timing chain drive. I want to use helical gears instead of straight cut gears for noise reasons. don't want to go tripping the knock sensor just because the cam drive is noisy. Worse comes to worse ill have to go straight cut.

so far ive been busy with this......
http://www.k20a.org/forum/showthread.php?t=58793

after its done im going to start machining the honda based v8 design ive been working on. maybe stuff it in the civic when im done. Or something mid engine with porsche transaxle.

kevinyoung03
12-31-2009, 12:10 PM
It can give you some good effects on your car which you will surely enjoy.

Slociviccoupe
01-10-2010, 07:51 AM
well back to the drawing board. Doing more research through the honda lineup.
stumbled upon this.....
nsx titanium connecting rods.
(5.962") length center to center
(2.0083") Big End Diameter same as F, H, and K series
(.858") Big End Width same as B series
(.866") Piston Pin Diameter same as K series 22mm.


so change the stroke, and compression height of pistons. and now the option of factory oem titanium rods is now available. In my design i was going to use b series big end dimensions. and a whole custom rod would have to be made. 785$ a set of 4 for crower I beams. But with the new found dimensions of the nsx rod being the same width as b series i will be using reman nsx rods bushed for a floating pin. Ive found 6 for 1250$ so add the price of the other 2 rods and im still cheaper than aftermarket steel rods. and im ending up with titanium rods. what else could be better.

Shafto
01-28-2010, 02:55 PM
Update?

Slociviccoupe
01-28-2010, 04:41 PM
im still drawing things on cad and pricing out materials. Also trying to find companies that can make the parts that i can't. like gears for the rear timing chain drive.

If i had the money for materials Id have the cylinder banks machined with the darton dry sleeves installed, the crank case machined, and the crank made.
id have the 8 c30a nsx rods with 8 wiseco pistons nsx rod bearings and j35 main bearings.

im to the point now where i can't draw anymore on cad until i have parts infront of me to mock up, measure and integrate into the design. thing is money
I need sponsors or donations. but its hard to get people to believe in you or to find people that are willing to give up parts, cough oem nsx rods.
thats my update.

Scott@HPT
01-28-2010, 05:01 PM
im still drawing things on cad and pricing out materials. Also trying to find companies that can make the parts that i can't. like gears for the rear timing chain drive.

If i had the money for materials Id have the cylinder banks machined with the darton dry sleeves installed, the crank case machined, and the crank made.
id have the 8 c30a nsx rods with 8 wiseco pistons nsx rod bearings and j35 main bearings.

im to the point now where i can't draw anymore on cad until i have parts infront of me to mock up, measure and integrate into the design. thing is money
I need sponsors or donations. but its hard to get people to believe in you or to find people that are willing to give up parts, cough oem nsx rods.
thats my update.


What do you need exactly? I can get the machine work done for you at cost. Let me know.

JDMEG6
02-04-2010, 10:59 AM
im still drawing things on cad and pricing out materials. Also trying to find companies that can make the parts that i can't. like gears for the rear timing chain drive.

If i had the money for materials Id have the cylinder banks machined with the darton dry sleeves installed, the crank case machined, and the crank made.
id have the 8 c30a nsx rods with 8 wiseco pistons nsx rod bearings and j35 main bearings.

im to the point now where i can't draw anymore on cad until i have parts infront of me to mock up, measure and integrate into the design. thing is money
I need sponsors or donations. but its hard to get people to believe in you or to find people that are willing to give up parts, cough oem nsx rods.
thats my update.

I'm sure if you are willing to whore out the car with stickers and put together a nice enough resume/portfolio even in these tough times you will have a line of sponsors.

I'm sure you have but what does a set of rods go for on nsxprime? 3.2s or 3.0s?

Slociviccoupe
02-04-2010, 03:03 PM
1250.00$ for 6 rods.

i just found some for 75.00$ a rod. but thats still 600$ to shell out. especially hard when work is really slow.

zakats
05-30-2010, 09:45 PM
the economy is back up, now what's keeping you?

JDMEG6
05-31-2010, 10:12 AM
the economy is back up, now what's keeping you?

That every part of this build is costly and time consuming most probably :P. Man I want to see this thing finished too.

Shafto
06-23-2010, 08:34 PM
That every part of this build is costly and time consuming most probably :P. Man I want to see this thing finished too.

This could be ready for it.... wait for it...... epic. I CAN NOT wait for this, it would be too good to be true, so I cant get my hopes up too high.

TIdilsi
09-27-2010, 06:04 PM
any updates?

vjscrx
10-12-2010, 06:40 PM
Interesting build can't wait to see the outcome... Good luck

Topo Gigio
10-13-2010, 06:56 PM
I hope this is still in the works...

Slociviccoupe
01-17-2011, 07:48 AM
mine is but very slow. im finishing up the rwd civic on here. then regular maintnance on my s2k and a lil boost. then back to spending money on the honda based v8.

Bossman
01-17-2011, 08:03 AM
so rather than use funds for a new engine design which would be the first you'd rather boost another car? Hell anyone with a grain of dedication would have sold off everything but a daily driver and marched foward.How can you ask for sponsrs and ppl to "donate" (aka give you money they will never see returns on) when you are not even working 100% on this project?

Slociviccoupe
01-17-2011, 10:40 AM
whats your problem man, ive already purchased 2 s2k cylinder heads, a s2000 block just for measurements, dishing out my own money that i don't have much of in the first place. still have to buy 8 nsx connecting rods, 3k$ for the crank to be made, the cost of the billets and the machine time. you think this is cheap? and then the setbacks of not being able to find afordable products, 500$ a gear for the rear timing chain reversal/drive. and you want to go and talk about dedication. go get a life. unless you personally can design, draw on cad, and come up with a part off a machine then your comments are not appreciated. this is a personal project for myself not something to be produced or sold. Yes 3 years ago when i started on it i wanted it to get done, but like everything a good solid design that will work in the end and not be just a prety coffee table all take time. I work a full time job, go to school, and do side work fixing and building cars. in actuality i should just ask nikos to close this post.

just add up the cost of the products and let me know if you could fund this project on your own. while having a car payment, school, full time job and helpin friends out with their swaps and turbo builds.

rods- 75$ each used. 600$ for 8

pistons- 500$ a set of 4 so 1000$ total

crank- 3000$ custom made 4340 billet crank

billet blanks- 732$ for 6061 billet aluminum blank for cylinders
292$ for 6061 billet aluminum for lower engine half
forgot to get price for material for upper engine case.
so excluding the upper engine case. 1024$ in just material

main bearings- j series main bearings, (10) upper and lower bearings 100$

rod bearings- nsx rod bearings (16) 160$

intake manifold- jenvy lower intake manifolds 300$ each 75$ each velocity
each velocity stack. so 2 manifolds and 8 velocity stacks
1200$ not including making the plenum or a throtle body.

head studs-139.69 set (2) sets 279.38$

main studs- 138.94$ set

nickasil plating cylinders- 400$

headgaskets- 46.59$ each, 93.18$ (2)

cylinder dowels- .85ents (44) for cylinder banks 37.4$

main dowels- 3.66 each (10) for mains 36.6$

rear main- 11.11$

timing chain- 69.44$ (2) 138.88$

timing chain guides- 164$ for 2 sets

timing chain tensioner- 116.81 each 233.62$ for 2

cam idler gear- 50.67$

idler gear components- 12.48$, 4.95$, 3.12$, 1.24$= 21.79$

timing chain drive sprocket- 51.79$ before machining for modification

cam gear- 83.34$ before machining for modification

front seal- 8.67$

there is plenty more, various hardware that hasn't even been considered, more material for the billet dry sump oil pan, the dry sump system, alternator, electric water pump, pulleys, wiring, ems, sensors, or machine time to machine it all, tools, AN fittings and lines,

not including how much the software costs. yes i have autocad from before but the years in experiance i have and how much that would cost if i had to pay someone to do it.

so read this post and tell me about dedication. ive worked 3 years on this.

Slociviccoupe
01-19-2011, 11:44 AM
all i gota say is wow, go back to honda tech if you have nothing good or productive to say. k20a is better than this.

since im not allowed to try to find a sponsor or try to find donations maybe trading is acceptable to the ass on this thread.
I have a sleeved f22c block that i would like to trade straight up for 8 nsx connecting rods. all have to be matching, so anyone from coast to coast that may know someone needing a s2k sleeved block. And knows any shops that build nsx's try to find me (8) c30a or (8) c32a connecting rods and the block is theirs.

and yeah the economy is not up. there is barely any work down here in the space coast because of the cape closing because of the shuttle program. all the machine shops and government positions are flooded with applicants from the cape which will get chosen first. Industry is dead in this area.
And gas, i don't even look anymore. Just swipe my card or pay what i have and get what i need to get to work.
so the economy is definately not back up again.

some people may think sure its just money but its not, sure you could go and buy a 3000$ crank for a honda motor motor and it work. But thing is its not just that easy in this application. Ive had to narrow the mains to j series main bearing widths and diameters in order to move the counterweights outward from the rod journals to keep some sort of material to them. I had to narrow the rod bearing widths from the f22c width to the width of a nsx or b series rod. Also just to be able to fit 2 rods on one rod journal and keep at least .5" thickness for the crank web. All this while having to stagger the cylinder banks and figure out which one to stagger forward and which one to stagger back. all trying to keep the engine design compact and not waste space or material. All while keeping the oem bore spacing of a f22c.
And to top it off there is a gear either helical cut or straight cut that will have to be shrink press fit to the end of the crank for the rear cam chain drive.

so there is a lot at stake just in the crank. one wrong measurement or not enough planning and there is a 3000$ 4340 billet paperweight.

http://i699.photobucket.com/albums/vv355/slociviccoupe/honda%20v8/crank.jpg

the block is the same way, its not like im buying a 2000$ sleeved block that has already been engineered by honda and just improved. Im having to start from scratch. Looking at different engines and figuring out what will fit and what doesn't. then numerous cad drawings to make it possible. or at least see it in 3d on the computer. Then again if i miss something. once its milled and i mill out too much material there really isn't anything i can do but start over. So it will have to have the basic dimensions made, and the bore centers made then mulitple trips to the machine shop to have more and more whittled away till it something that looks and is a functional engine.
keeping in mind that bores and main journals can't be finished honde till final machining is complete. because everytime you mill at aluminum and remove material your removing stress and the metal has a tendancy to move. so those tolerances could be off.
Im really eager this year to at least get the crank made, the billets for the cylinders and have them rough machined. Like the profile or the cylinders, the headbolt holes, and the rough bores and coolant passages. Along with the rough shape of the crank case and finned aluminum dru sump oil pan. so it actually looks like an engine sitting inside the house and i can progress further on the design and machining while collecting more and more parts as i can.

1320WhtRex
01-19-2011, 12:15 PM
:up:

Keep up the updates and progress man...

eyecarvether4iam
01-19-2011, 12:29 PM
I concurr!!!!

Best of luck with getting the crankshaft done this year!

Slociviccoupe
01-19-2011, 12:52 PM
yeah the gear at the back is been the struggling point so far. any custom gear is about 500$ a gear. so tried looking through various honda transmissions and found something but getting them is becoming a pain. so might just be going back to initial design using the modified oem f20/22c cam drive gears and change the flange diameter of the end of the crankshaft to suit the diameter of the gear. instead of finding a gear to suit the end of the crankshaft.

eyecarvether4iam
01-19-2011, 01:10 PM
Probably going to be the easier solution, since the crank is already going to be the custom piece.

Keep hope alive sir! Hope to see more progress on the s2k civic as well.

Hopefully by summer, I will be to the point to convert the E to RWD...

Subscribed!

Slociviccoupe
01-19-2011, 01:17 PM
the E? definately pm me for some what i think are some do's and donts of the rwd conversion. mine is coming out well after a few redoing some things. still not done and seems 1 step forward 2 steps back. but top notch quality when done.

Crimson_Marquis
01-19-2011, 03:28 PM
:up: For any guy crazy enough to take this mammoth project on.

I'd love to see more, mang. I'm not the only one. You're tackling what some consider a dream, sir!

honda power
02-21-2011, 02:50 PM
noooooo thats it lol i just found this thread and have been reading it on and off for the past couple days, i was really hoping to see this thing finished by the time i made it to the last page either way very impressed keep up the good work and good luck with this project cant wait to see some more pics

HickamHatch
02-21-2011, 03:22 PM
I lost your number. Text me again so we can talk about the block gluing :dance:

joey.walla
02-21-2011, 04:16 PM
Absolutely amazing.

McCoy
02-21-2011, 05:50 PM
Absolutely amazing.

I am always blown away by this thread.

k24thor
03-09-2011, 04:23 PM
sounds like the best thing in life. think of what the vtec *could sound like

marcusw
03-26-2011, 10:00 AM
After having gone over this same design and pros vs cons in my head several times, I have determined I am not the one to do the build. I was going to doing it, but now realize it is not for me. It is nice to see you two brainstorming and even taking action to realize the goal. Definitely not two Washington Lawyers gone political here.

As for my two cents; when I was doing the designs, I did realize the simplicity of butting the two long blocks would have been easier and possibly a superior design. The F series motors are not too long when just measuring the cylinder bank. The block without the front timing cover and sprockets is not two long. Mating the two might produce a longer than desired block, but with the right adjustments to the mounts you could back the block a few inches and still have a semi balanced vehicle. I don't know! Just a ton to think about.

With the fabricating creative minds you two possess, I am confident in saying you two could figure it out. At least you two are not as stupid as this guy;

the economy is back up, now what's keeping you?

HA HA!!! What is back up about the economy?? If a person had a brain, they'd realize the U.S. economy is in dire and even worse condition than it was two years ago. Our (USA) number one export is education (do the math, how much longer until other countries start their own schools and surpass our schools?)!! If you are looking at the stocks...... What happens to value of a share when the value of the currency goes down?

zakats Grow a BRAIN or turn off the tv! You can tell these two people and you have nothing in common. Just because you can spell Honda or economy doesn't mean you know S**T about them now does it??

Sorry for the moment of rage! I'd kick my dog, but she's not even stupid enough to say the economy is back up! (We are trying to avoid the expected 30% devaluation of homes in 2011, what are people with upside-down loans on their houses going to do when they all of a sudden owe 30% more? That's right, walk away.)

Sorry about the tangent people, it just scares me some people can vote!

Oh btw, just was checking out your rwd civic. All I can say is you douche!! I am jealous!

crxvtec91
03-28-2011, 07:19 AM
Damn that is some killer work! Can't wait to see the final product!

02sik24a2
03-28-2011, 01:41 PM
I was counting on this to go through...OH the bragging rights it would bring to us all........

crxvtec91
03-29-2011, 11:50 AM
I was counting on this to go through...OH the bragging rights it would bring to us all........

Not only that, it would be badass if it had a s2k bell housing! v8 honda powered s2k would rock:dance: